Causes not symptoms? #brexit #giletsjaunes

Whilst everyone is tearing their hair out (or not) about Brexit, here is a link to a sobering read. I have put it in general discussion as it describes some of the triggers for the crises we currently face.

What do you think we can do as individuals about this?

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I like this guyā€¦x :slight_smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN7_CuZdnJE

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This question haunts me. For many years, as long as I can remember I have had a sense of unease, a pervasive anxiety, about the way things are. This is expressed in the article you shared with us, Marijke, in this fragment:

ā€œThe crisis of Brexit and the eruption of the riots in France are symptoms of a great unfolding civilizational transition, in which an old reductionist paradigm of materialist self-maximation is dyingā€.

It was expressed artistically by Philip Glass in his work Koyaanisqatsi (for the film of the same name) both of which I found extraordinarily moving in the mid 1980s,and still do. Koyaanisqatsi - Wikipedia

The music does open the gates of perception, and is worth listening to IMO. As the article is too, and as it does open the conditioned mind

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Thank you Helen for your response. I have watched the video and find it really interesting.

I went to an interesting talk last year by Natalie Fenton where she argued that the problem was not just fake news but fake democracy. We are so far removed from having any say in important decisions and this in any supposed Western Democracy.

So what Roman Light suggests is very powerful. However I am not sure if it is a very straightforward solution. Take Brexit as a referendum and the ensuing chaos currently taking place. Maybe a referendum will work if it is a more straightforward question but then what is to stop aggressive referenda (think thatā€™s the plural!) taking place i.e. bringing back the death penalty or severely discriminatory policies if anyone can suggest one.

But cutting out the powerful lobbies that prevent change, and legislating in a manner that helps our civilization is of course appealing. On the other hand you have Trump supposedly elected to help drain the swamp in Washington. In my humble opinion he is an even worse swamp!

You have given me lots to think about.

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Thank you so much Peter. I will see if I can get hold of a copy of the film to watch. It sounds incredible on the Wikipedia description.

I fear that the human race may continue to materially self maximise until it is too late!

I am trying to think of a more positive way to end this reply to you. One book I loved recently was Donna Harawayā€™s ā€˜Staying with the Troubleā€™.

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Iā€™m with the gilet jaunesā€¦and I would like to see the yellow vest protests spread Europe wide and world wideā€¦with the hope that it doesnā€™t get co-opted along the way and turned into something it isnā€™tā€¦

I hear turkey are banning the sale of hi vizā€¦???

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I am all for and support visibility for the undermined and forgotten, in the form of non violent protest. I donā€™t feel able to comment on the gilets jaunes other than that, as it seems to be made up of so many different demands.

Glad Orban is being stood up to!!

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I should have asked, if the protests spread around the world what would you like the outcomes to be? What qualifies as a good outcome (s) in France where you would believe the movement to have been a resounding success?

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So far I feel itā€™s an ā€œorganicā€ movementā€¦no leaders no divisionsā€¦started by the French people and spreadingā€¦

It has enormous potential to bring down corrupt governments the world over but also vulnerable to being co-opted by vested interestsā€¦

My hope as with any people inspired revolution is that we finally come together with one voice for the whole of humanityā€¦itā€™s been a long time comingā€¦,

Roman talks of how the ā€œpowerā€ lies with the peopleā€¦we the people are the power that fuels the hypocrisy of the elite by our belief that voting for elites who donā€™t care about us one way or the other can make a difference ā€¦once we wake up and stand together side by side we would be invincibleā€¦

I would say it even goes way beyond thatā€¦

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Hereā€™s a discussion held by my friend Daniā€¦love her to bitsā€¦x :slight_smile:

https://www.rts.earth/2018/12/unfuckit-discussion-dec-12-2018/

My rather pessimistic view is that the eruption of high-vis human protest must be likened to a rash that is a sign of a systemic malaise, but contributes nothing to its cure. In that sense it can be described as organic. It is largely uncontrived phenomenon, follows a predictable trajectory, and can be managed by the administration of ā€˜antibodiesā€™ for which people can be readily persuaded to line up with sensitive areas of their person exposed.

It may be irritable, itchy, and it may advertise danger to the uninfected, or attract kindly others who want to help the afflicted, who soon develop the rash themselves. The rash generally soon disappears, leaving no scars, only a sense of lassitude, and occasionally more serious sequlae for an unfortunate minority, who can not expect much sympathy from survivors.

I am pretty confident that ā€˜laboratoriesā€™ are busily engaged in preparing to stem the spread of inconvenient ā€˜rashesā€™ all over the world, and have soothing balms to stop people getting too scratchy, or drawing blood with their nails in an effort to get relief from a bad dose of itch.

I donā€™t know what outcomes the Gilet Jaunes want or expect, except perhaps a month without unpaid bills and an empty fridge. And a sense of the hopelessness and futility of modern life and the seeming injustice of the status quo. If an end to those feelings is an outcome, and not just an unattainable illusion, I canā€™t see what practical steps might lead to it. Can anyone?

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Koyaanisqatsi is an wonderful film, I saw it at the cinema, extraordinary to think it came out in 1982.

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Unfortunately very many extremists have joined in with it, I am sure it wasnā€™t a lovely pure altruistic cuddly democratic gilet jaune who stopped me getting out of the car park, but some misogynist FN tosspot - but he was certainly wearing a yellow hi vis vestā€¦

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I see it as the same phenomenon, but on a larger scale, that you sometimes get within a company. Dissatisfaction is contagious, always has been and always will be. Youhave a company thatā€™s regarded as a good place to work, the workforce and management get along pretty well, working conditions arenā€™t perfect but there enough goodwill for it not to be a problem. Then one individual worker gets hacked off because of a perceived injustice - they donā€™t get promoted or they donā€™t get a pay rise or they get disciplined for being late or unauthorised absence or something - and they start moaning, and their close colleagues take up the moan, and it spreads across the whole company and before you know it, what used to be a happy enough atmosphere in the workplace has turned poisonous. In reality nothing much has changed, itā€™s all in the perception. One worker started the negativity by airing one specific grievance that may or may not have been justified, and now every little problem is a major issue that needs to be addressed and everything the management does is judged harshly and interpreted with suspicion. Once it gets to that point itā€™s hard to turn it around.

Anna, @anon27586881 I think the sequence of events you describe in your scenario is probably close to reality, but I think the chemistry is wrong.

Thereā€™s a funny smell in the factory but itā€™s been around for so long the workersā€™ have stopped moaning about it to management and in any case their noses are no longer sensitive to it, and most say itā€™s disappeared. And it wasnā€™t that bad anyway: some people liked it, and even miss it.

Then a well-known belly-acher (who always had a point, though) lit a surreptitious fag with a forbidden match and the whole plant exploded with 150 dead and 200 badly burned or injured.

Of course, management were prosecuted under H&S regulations, but no-one was blamed except the belly-acher, and the PM promised this would never happen again. :thinking:

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Hi Peter

I liked your factory analogy a lot.

To go back to the original article I posted, the actual problems we face are obfuscated and there is a general sense of malaise and unhappiness which can act as fertile territory for the far right.

But in not dealing with the problems we face certain displacement activities seem to take place. People start believing in conspiracy theories or are getting high on a particularly toxic form of nostalgia.

Lots of people want to return to an imaginary pastā€¦ To go back to your previous post, that is an itch they canā€™t stop scratching!

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Somersetā€¦! x :slight_smile:

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the initial yellow vest protest is against the tax hikes of 6.5c in diesel fuel, of which there are many diesel vehiclesā€¦ and some are very polluting. The hike was supposedly to reduce consumption and pollutionā€¦ but here in rural france, we do not have any public transport, taxis are 2ā‚¬.km, trains run inter-cityā€¦ so the car it a critical element in everyday livingā€¦ and a very lucrative tax source for the gov. The tax hike would have hit everyone hereā€¦ and those in even more remote commnunes, and probably with even less spending power would have been some of the hardest hit in Macrons bid to be prominent in the Paris accordā€¦ but from his and government wealth position, totally ignored the average jo public would be caned with the cost of his ego tripā€¦ The yellow vest petition is stated to have 900,000 signaturesā€¦ but for 5 weeks now, i am harassed and sometimes forced to stop at their annoying suicidal tactics at junctionsā€¦ wanting me to signā€¦ i could have signed 30+ times or more if they had actually gotten anywhere near my vehicleā€¦ Since the first saturday protests, their demands are increasing without any cohesive guidance, each road block appears to have a different grievance, and now, they resort to the violence in the citiesā€¦ The police are no saints, but when faced with ā€œpeaceful protestersā€ā€¦ wearing masks, carrying crash helmets and wearing them as they push and bait the police linesā€¦ their actions are riotous and deserve the response they get from the policeā€¦ These protests are hijacked by rent a mob, destroying and looting is not a democratic process?.. The yellow jacket will become like the Brown shirts of Mosely and become a symbol to rally the mobsā€¦ Their cause has been answered, Macron has backed down on the tax, and went on to concede many other thingsā€¦ and still today, for the fifth saturday, the yellow backs are destroying their towns and citiesā€¦

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It is not a demonstration anymore. It is political protest by both extremes.

I agree with you. When I said I was in favour of visibility for the forgotten and overlooked, I did say by means of non violent protest.

I feel for you with the hassle you have experienced and especially for people who have had their businesses ransacked and pillaged in cities.

I read this article by John Rentoul this morning and it does not bode well.

A decisive convincing message from Macron on how to tackle the issues we face is maybe the only solution?