Devis Decennale Death!

General Discussion
1

Can anyone help?


I have been trying to get a qualified insured roofer in the Ste Foy la Grande or Castillon area (24 or 33) for 3 months now. I have received Devis which are poor in detail and when I ask about garantie décennale or attestation de responsabilité civile or assurance multirisque professionnelle I am just getting "fobbed off". Are Devis written in English legal? I doubt it somehow? Is a "multirisque assurance going to cover the work if it is only monthly paid, What if he stops paying part way through? This is a large job 150m2 so I really need it doing properly.


Any clarification of the above points would be very gratefully received. AND a recommendation of a roofer would be wonderful. Thank you.


2

Thank you to all who had an input into this discussion, it has helped me and I hope others too.

Have now finally found a roofer able to provide; decent devis, appropriate insurance and start date (weather dependant....of course!).

Merci a tous

3

Sarah I am curious about your comment about the change in the law which no longer obliges plumbers or electricians to take out decennale insurance. My partner is a plumber and electrician and has just changed his business structure to Entreprise individuelle and is in the process of receiving quotes for decennale insurance. Where did you hear of this information? I have tried to find some information on this but I can't find any info. If he could just take out Responsabilité civil it will be so much cheaper.

4

Shirley raises an interesting point; most insurers will cover their clients for work they undertake in a foreign country - for an additional premium- which loads the end price of the contract. A distinction needs to be made between insurance and legal protections and it is important to know which country's laws will 'govern' the works contract in the event of a contractual dispute. Sadly, litigation in any country is expensive and time-consuming....best avoided if at all possible.

Of course, there is nothing to stop both parties to a contract agreeing (in advance, obviously) on a means of settling any dispute without resorting to Court action, such as appointing a nominated third party to act as arbitrator or by agreeing to refer the matter to "appropriately qualified" independent adjudication.

As a last suggestion, you might try to agree a 'defects liability period' in the contract, and withhold part of the final payment for a period of time after completion during which the contractor accepts full responsibility and undertakes to fix any problems which emerge. Expect some resistance to this!

The difficulty in resolving disputes / correcting errors highlights the importance of choosing a contractor (for any task) with care: a good company / individual will not feel slighted in any way and will be happy to provide answers, references etc. Also, an unambiguous specification of the work you want done will (should) ensure that all your devis are 'on all fours'. With roofs, for example, there are many variables which can affect costs, making a like-for-like comparison difficult.

I'm a General Practice Surveyor, so my insurances are for public liability and professional negligence. As a linguistic nicety, the French have it as 'professional competence' - a very much more optimistic way to look at it!

Hope this has helped, rather than confused.

John

5

Any professional tradesman worth his salt should have the obligatory insurances.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/F23668.xhtml

Assurances obligatoires

En fonction de l'activité exercée, il existe des assurances obligatoires comme, par exemple, l'assurance responsabilité civile décennale qui concerne les métiers du bâtiment.

The part quoted above is for AE but it applies to all artisans in the building trade.

For a new update have a look at this new law going through which states that all artisans will have to show their obligatory insurance details on their devis and factures. That will help stop the cowboys that do not have the decennale.

http://www.federation-auto-entrepreneur.fr/auto-entrepreneur/actualite/2014/02/20/actualite-loi-pinel-une-premiere-analyse-de-la-fedae.html

In order to get the decennale you have to prove you are qualified and experienced - that's why the cowboys don't have it although I will concede it is expensive.

6

Hello again, Sue.

Here (Brittany) there are many British folk, and regrettably some that don't / won't speak or learn French, making them easy prey to the cowboys I warned of.

As I understand it, and a legal view would probably be welcome; if two parties enter into a contract the aforementioned contract is treated as being subject to the laws (and enforcement) available in the sovereign territory in which the contract is signed (regardless of language used); and to which it relates, UNLESS both parties agree that the contract is subject to the laws of a.n.other country. And even then, there needs to be some plausible reason for so doing, such as parent company ownership from outside the EU.

In your circumstances, my expectation would be that as you are domiciled in France (yes?) and would be contracting with a company also domiciled in France the contract would be subject to French laws..... which is probably preferable to suing a builder remotely through the British legal system - the value of the roof would be eaten up in costs associated with 'case conferences' 'pre-trial hearings' etc etc. If the contract was worth many millions of euros, then it might be worth considering, but the French system, whilst a little arcane to the outsider, is sound and you can rely on it to protect you from fraudsters and conmen (and women).

You will be checking their SIREN / SIRET code and confirming their APE (Activite Principale Exercee) number too...(start with www.insee.fr )

Looking at Sarah Crosby's reply (below) her employer seems to have the right approach, and if they are by any chance located in Brittany, I'd be pleased to receive their details!

As others have mentioned, the insurance against latent defects / defective workmanship which may take years to become apparent, is of questionable value. I have a case at present where the roofer is trying to wriggle-out of responsibility by reference to the recent (agreed "exceptionally") heavy rain we have had and is willfully denying that the function of a roof is to keep water out....... (I'll name no names...unless anyone in Brittany wants to contact me directly).

In conclusion, choose your contractor with care, but start from a point of mutual trust; don't expect to have to sue them, but make it clear, with a steely look in your eye, that you will....if it becomes necessary; privately, hope that it doesn't.

John

7

Hi Sue,

We are 15 mins south of St Foy {Margueron} and spent all of last week on site with builders and architects etc. { a maison roof 100sqM and a barn of 400sqM} We have a very short short list of two macon / macon roofer teams. One English/French and one Portugese/French. We have seen first hand work completed by both teams and it appears excellent. We are awaiting their Devis - with baited breath. Happy to pass details to you ... we hadn't gone into the Insurance part yet but checked they both had decennal guarantees.

8

As a thought, around here (Burgundy) it is difficult to get quotes as well due to the fact that the roofers are all so busy. My husband works alongside them and he now liaises with them for quotes as many of his clients can not get anyone to even quote for the work. When a quote is obtained it is a minimum of 6 months to a year before they are even vaguely available to start the work.

9

I thoroughly agree with John- I am sure we both have "placards" full of stories about terrible events on building projects on both side of the Channel! In my village in Brittany a local Brit (holiday home) got fleeced for 60k euros by a British rogue builder. In another case a builder who did work on an isolated holiday home got paid for work done and then after payment someone came and stripped the joint (including floor joists) the day before a buyer was due complete (luckily they asked me to check the place the eve of completion of purchase). I could go on for HOURS but it's very depressing. At the other end of the scale I worked as a labourer and decorator for a building firm in the 60's and they have been in continuous family operation since 1591!

10

Thanks David

11

No I have no reluctance to engage a French contractor, I speak French. But I had contacted one English speaking company to act as 'maitre d'oeuvre' because I was having such a problem getting anyone to ring me back and come and do the Devis.

It would appear that his insurance does not cover him for what he said it would.............

I am now waiting to see the details of the insurances of a French roofer who seems to be good for the work.

12

Hi Sue

My understanding is that all devis and factures must be in French to be recognised by the authorities, tax office, etc., - I was told this by a notaire. As far as the insurance goes, and will absolutely stand corrected, I believe it becomes invalid if the artisan stops paying it or if he goes out of business, etc. I know people who have tried to pursue artisans thinking this insurance would cover them for problems occurring within the 10-year time period to quickly realise this insurance is not worth the paper it is written on. If you have 'protection juridique' in your home insurance policy I think that in some cases the insurance company can pursue artisans for faulty workmanship and it is worth checking out with your insurer before hiring anyone. Good luck with it all...it isn't easy!

13

Good sound advice John. I wholeheartedly agree, any serious contractor will provide the requisite guarantees if they want the job.

14

I regret that all my professional (Architect RIBA) experience is really in the UK but in undertaking projects in the UK (especially larger ones) proper guarantees were usually required. Given that construction companies are amongst the most likely to go bankrupt such guarantees were obtained from a separate insurance company but the policy (assignable to any new owner) was always in the name of the building owner rather than the contractor (or specialist sub-contractor). On our projects we were usually certifying interim and final payment after site inspection as well so if that role was part of the architect's responsibility (which it always USED to be) then the client always had the benefit of that professional duty, with attendant professional indemnity insurance often good for 15 years after discovery of a defect as well. However more ercently architect's duties have often been stripped down to planning permission or basic design only, so that depth of cover is frequently lacking these days. There is a lesson to be learned: Cut the service, cut the cost and you get less protection as well. At the end of the day ALL normal costs of a building project need to be picked up by the client. If they decide not to use a professional architect, or a surveyor or engineer, then there inevitably many more risks. To get a domestic job done and to get proper professional services (and their protection) you need to count on about 10-15% in fees plus VAT if applicable. Regrettably far too many projects are split up into different responsibilities and frequently there is not a knowledgeable and properly qualified person on the job. Just look at the cowboy builders programmes.

15

Hello Sue, your plight motivated me to join the network, and I have a couple of questions / suggestions (some of which may provoke further discussion). but the intention is to help!

Your roof project looks like a major expense (+/- 25k€ basic spec' with a wide variation in devis received), so you are right to look for some safeguards / guarantees. Would I be right to think there is some reluctance to engaging a French contractor, but have you considered using an English speaking architect or surveyor to act as 'maitre d'oeuvre' / project manager to undertake the contract tendering and works supervision? They could also offer guidance on any alterations (windows / insulation / materials) you propose to include in the project, and further advise on any appropriate reinforcement of the roof support structure which might be needed. An independent professional sign-off on the project will reassure you; ask to see their Indemnity Insurance and examples of their recent work.

Is your property one of architectural merit or charm where you are anxious to conserve the look and feel? In which case you could contact your local conservation / preservation / architectural heritage organisation to obtain advice on materials; tile/slate density; gutterings etc etc.... (it's quite a long list!), also they, as well as the local Chambre des metiers, could offer a list of "approved contractors". Or simply ask at the Mairie for a list and suggestions for locally active couvreurs who have local experience and a reputation to maintain. If you're incorporating any alterations to the external appearance of the building, the Mairie can also advise on any statutory / administrative consents you may be required to obtain in advance of any works.

Whatever you do, don't accept the cheapest price from a contractor who cannot produce appropriate business and trade accreditations - and you should insist on insurance for any 'collateral damage' they cause to your property while they are working on the roof! (If this can't be produced;- end the contact) Similarly, be circumspect about a contractor who cannot produce the names (and 'phone numbers) of three of their recent 'clients' or is unwilling to show you examples of their work. I hope it needs not be said that you must ensure the contractor and all of his labourers are not working 'on the black'. Never pay in cash!

The roof (and it's substructure) is an essential part of a building's fabric; a good, sympathetic and well-executed job adds charm, longevity and residual value to your asset. It is always worthwhile to 'go the extra mile' (or perhaps "mille"?) to get it right.

There are many skilled contractors who take pride in their work, but in my years of surveying I have encountered a few horror stories caused by ham-fisted charlatans masquerading as artisans who seem to disappear as soon as problems emerge as result of a poorly finished job;- and the devil is in the detail.

Hope this has provided some food for thought, and wishing you good luck with the project.

John

16

Just a thought - have you heard of or tried Seurin from Cadillac en Fronsadais 33240. They came to us in 2004 and did a superb job - not cheap though. One roof on a cottage and barn and one roof on an old mill over a river. If you need more info- please ask.

17

According to the the official Service Public site, there is no mention of what language a devis should be in, by contrast it does state as per my links that the facture much be in French. Please can you post a link to the official text so I can check it out and start brushing up my technical French as I'm sure it will be me that ends up as my husbands translator!

18

One of the building companies I work with (as their translator) told me that the decennale is legally required for builders/building works but that there was a change in the law which no longer obliges plumbers or electricians to take it out

As for devis, they can be produced in any language and it is the moment they are signed, dated etc that they become legal - although it is wise to expect some prices may be altered when the final invoice arrives due to unforseen issues.

My clients get the original with a translated copy that also has to be signed and dated so that both client and workmen fully understand the job to be done and the agreed cost

19

If you are really having a problem then contact M. VERDUGER Roland. He's a maitre d'oeuvre en batiment and doing a great job in organising artisans for a friend of mine not far from Ste Foy.

http://www.batiliste.fr/fiche-prescripteurs-33794-VERDUGER.html

To answer your original question. No; A devis should be in French.

20

Many thanks for the links Tracy a great help.