My Mother-in-law and Father-in-law have lived in France for just over 20 years. They have their Carte de Séjour and own their own home. They have never worked in France as they went out there at the (then) UK retirement age.
Now, FIL is 86, in rapidly declining health, is likely to die, and has been in a hospital for several weeks. He is moving to an Ephad next week. MIL thought he would be able to defer payment and use the proceeds of the house sale to pay for care home fees. However, she has been told that as he receives a pension, which is enough to pay the care home fees, he must pay them in full as they are incurred. This will leave her with a significant shortfall of income. When she asked how she would pay her bills or eat, the lady she spoke to said ‘ask your children.’
MIL has 3 children, who all live in the UK. Is it really right that there is no option for deferral if fees?
I hope someone who knows about this stuff will be along soon to advise.
I would ask their local town hall (“mairie”, contact details easily google-able if you have their postcode and place name), if there is an “Assistante Sociale” she could make an appointment with. In a slightly different situation but still without resources, I know @Shiba was very much helped by.the local Assistante Sociale as to benefits etc.
Do asap as processes can take time. Assuming they’re officially resident and done their yearly tax returns I suspect the answer she’s received will stand but there may be some other benefit she can apply for and the Assistante Sociale is the person to advise and help.
Welcome @Olive , first up I do not have a solution to your querie but bearing in mind the absolute protection of inheritance for children in French law, I can see why the comment ‘ask your children’ came from. It is possible that they think that they, the inheritors, should pay out of their expected inheritance.
Have you broached the subject with them?
But I agree, the Mairie is your first port of call.
Quite simply, under French law children are normally responsible for their parents’ welfare (and vice versa). Not the State.
If there had been no pension, the children would have been expected to pay the EHPAD fees, or at least contribute as much as they are deemed to be able to afford. The State will only step in if there are no children or if the children are on low incomes. It makes no legal difference where the children live although in practice it obviously makes it more complicated administratively if they live out of France. The procedure is that the children are asked to provide full details of their income and their expenses to the French courts, and a judge will decide how much, if at all, they are to pay. They will not be asked to pay an amount that will cause them or their families any actual hardship.
It is the other side of French succession law, the devoirs that come with the droits, as usual you do not get one without the other. On the one side the child’s right to inherit from their parent is protected, on the other side the child has obligations during their parent’s lifetime.
If the child renounces their inheritance, this obligation ceases.
This is all perfectly normal to the average French person so if you ask at the Mairie, be prepared to explain that it is different in the UK hence your question.
Thank you for the detailed response. I’m understanding the position as regards to children supporting parents in EPHADs. I think what I’m a little confused about is that it is MIL who cannot afford to live if PIL pays his full fees from his pension. They seem to not be interested in the fact that she will not be able to meet her bills. Therefore, what is being said, is that we have to give HER money, so that she can pay for the EHPAD bill out of PIL’s pension. That means that our finances won’t be assessed for affordability, because we will be contributing to MIL’s living costs rather than PIL’s care home fees. Does that make any sense?
It seems that MIL’s living costs aren’t being assessed at all, it is just seen as ‘PIL can afford this from his pension’ and ignores the fact that his pension normally pays for their living costs and most of those are fixed and don’t go down just because only one person lives there.
It does not have to go to court. My reply may have implied that, sorry if it did. Children and parents can come to an agreement between them that they all accept as fair, without any judge involved. But when there are a number of children involved it can be difficult for the family to find a fair way of deciding how much each should contribute, so making it official can be the best solution. Or when a dispute arises or when the children do not want to step up. But even if there are no EHPAD fees, then if the parent does not have enough money to live on and a child is refusing to help, the child can have their situation assessed and be obliged contribute if appropriate.
As responsible offspring you could either fund the EHPAD fees and let MIL use the pension to live on, or she can pay the fees and you pay her an allowance to live on. The authorities’ main concern is to ensure that the EHPAD bills will be paid. They may expect the fees to be paid from the pension because that is his own money. But I do not suppose they mind who pays them as long as they are paid.
I suppose what I am saying is that I cannot really see the difference. MIL needs enough money to pay both the care home fees and the household bills. Her offspring are obliged to ensure that she has sufficient money within the limits of their ability. If the family cannot meet the costs but the parents have an estate to leave, arrangements can be made for the State to pay for the EHPAD as a kind of loan against the future inheritance but I believe there would be interest to pay. Your social worker will explain as I do not know how this works.
She needs to talk to the Assitante Sociale about her situation independent from her husband.(via her mairie). There is financial help and practical support avaiable.
It is a shame they did not plan for this so she doesn’t have this stress.
I think in all honesty it has come quicker than they thought. We have been expressing concern for a few years, but even 3 months ago, they were talking about moving to a ‘better’ area of France for their old age. The decline has been sudden.
There is ASPA for those who need more income. Basically you sign over your property to the CAF who in turn pay a monthly payment to the owner(s) (I seem to remember its not more than €700/month. When the owner dies, the CAF take the property and sell it with the first €39,000 to be passed onto inheritors. The AS can help to apply for this. Basically a form of equity release so the money can be recouped but at the expense of the inheritors.
Thank you Olive for bringing this issue to our attention.
I’d always been aware that children - even those living outside France - are under an obligation in French law to pay or at least contribute to their parents’ care home fees. It’s surprising how many older people retiring to France don’t seem to know this.
But I confess I’d never considered a scenario where for example I find myself in a care home for whatever reason and my pension would be used to pay the fees.
Leaving my husband in quite a fix because he doesn’t have much income in his own name.
I’m glad that it has helped. We will of course support, but it does seem odd that we are obliged to support under a law of a country we don’t live in, because of a decision made that we would not have made. Especially when all 3 children have dependents already. But it’s been helpful to know the position and we’ll just have to work it out.
I know some people here don’t like the Connexion magazine but there was a high-profile case on this subject a few years ago. I don’t know what the outcome was.
Happens in the UK too, mum’s pension was automatically used and when he was alive, dad made up some of the difference and the local authority the rest. When dad died, we had three months to sell the house to pay for her care until that ran out, take that into consideration too especially if you return to the UK. Here in France, I believe that even grandchildren can be forced to pay a relative’s EHPAD fees hence who so many elderly continue to live within the family circle now.
France considers children to take responsability for their parents whatever the circumstances, same with inheritance issues. You just can’t dump a parent into care here and run away like they do in the UK (no offence to you either) and the authorities have the power to chase down the family members and force them to contribute what they can, hence why care homes are the last resort here.
Not so much an inheritance thing, as more of a social justice between descendants and ascendants thing, it comes from an obligation written in the Code Civil, Art. 205 et suivants, cf. also here.
As I recall, the subject of children/grandchildren being asked to financially assist their Parents/Grandparents, was thrashed about here on the forum a few years back.
(Possibly before The Connexion, as they often follow our lead )
One has to provide financial information etc etc… if one wishes to contest the Bill… and, if necessary, there will be a Legal Judgement one way or another.
Also, there are allowable “personal reasons” why a child would NOT be expected to aid a parent… I’ll try and find the official Link…
I believe it is principally if the child can prove that the parent did not support them when they were a dependent.
Maybe the above link to the Connexion explains why some people have understood this in the context of care homes but not in the context of general support. In fact the obligation is not specific to EHPAD fees, it has existed since Napoleonic times, long before EHPADs were invented. I do not see it makes a scrap of difference whether your monthly payment is made to an EHPAD or to your parent, either way you are providing support that your parent needs. For children who live in France, these payments are allowable against tax. Perhaps it is not the same in the UK, I do not know.
I take your point - but equally, you the children will benefit from the law of that same country because you will by law inherit from your parents living in the country, and if the estate is divided among the three children you will likely pay no succession tax on the estate (which under UK law you probably would).
The children of people in the French system also need to be aware of other financial responsibilities although they would not be relevant in this case.
About 10 years my neighbour’s mother died. She and her two siblings received a demand for €54,000 to repay a pension that her mother had received. They had I think three months to pay. This would normally have come out of the mother’s estate but her goods are held under usufruit by her second husband, Mr L. He is still alive at 94 years old and to date none of the children has received any inheritance. Mr L has asked if they would like to sell a property that they are waiting to inherit but if they were to do that his estate gains a lot at the expense of her mother’s.
Ten years after her mother’s death and paying the debt they are still waiting.
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