EU members not coming to Uk to work creating problems for farmers

migrantworkers
polishexpats

(Anna Watson) #25

Doesn’t surprise me at all how many red squares the UK has. According to the media, one of the first bits of EU legislation the UK is looking forward to chucking out after Brexit, is various EU directives on workers rights, such as agency workers’ right to paid holidays.


(Paul Flinders) #26

Certainly supporters of Brexit such as Dyson will welcome this possibility.

Not that he’s too bothered - builds most things in China anyway.


(Timothy Cole) #29

UK -

France -

https://blogs.alternatives-economiques.fr/gadrey/2016/06/19/le-cout-public-du-chomage-plus-de-100-milliards-d-euros-par-an

Apologies, the French figure is from 2016.


(Timothy Cole) #31

This was a comparison for unemployment benefit only so -

UK £2 billion, France anywhere between 45 and 100 billion Euros.

What’s very clear is that IF you qualify for unemployment benefit here it’s far more generous than the UK but the UK’s benefit system seems to dish out money more readily.


(Paul Flinders) #32

You’re thinking of Child Benefit.

Child Support is what absent parents (typically fathers) pay to support their offspring following the breakdown of a relationship.


(Paul Flinders) #36

The really sad thing is that, in some areas, you can find families who have been living like this for generations. Parents with no education, job or aspirations are a poor role model for children who go down the same path - or who get any ambition of their own crushed. I’m originally from South Yorkshire - if you want a sink-hole of failed local government overseeing failed generations of people you almost could not find a better example.


(Paul Flinders) #38

Fair enough, since there appears to have been some work done and data produced.

That said the test of multiple generations who have never worked is quite stringent - from my own experience you’ll get a family where my generation haven’t worked since the pit shut (or the steelworks), their now adult children have flitted among low status jobs and the kids don’t see much of a future for themselves. I’m pleased that it has been demonstrated not to be as common as the Daily Wail would have it but nevertheless I see these people if I return home.


(Barbara Deane) #40

You are all fluent with your figures and I really am not.
I am now basing my thoughts on experiences.
OK here we go…
During the running of our restaurant which was over 11
years ago I observed many cases of bad management at
local government level…which must link to gov policies and
legislation.
How can Nannies possibly work in UK without paying tax and
how could the employer could be exempt from tax…the same goes for
cleaners?
People coming to UK were managing to live in several properties, paid for
by UK and they managed to rent them to Polish people who crammed into
flats on housing estates with the sole purpose of living in London.
The same Polish people found their way from London to Lincolnshire and picked
for the farmers.
Now many of these Polish people have become stronger and wiser and have been rewarded
for their hard work One of my ex kitchen porters have returned home and has been operating
a bank and now has his own company and a rock band. He remembers his time in my restaurant
with good memories. Another porter was a trained doctor and was unable to find work within his profession in
London.
Seperately…may I say that when I was seriously ill 21 years ago the gov offered me no financial help.
Yes I had my own company and was paying paye, income tax and vat which is an obvious contribution
to the economy. I would have thought that I too would be entitled to some help.
I recovered after six months and began work again but the business was experiencing a big strain
on its recources.
But onwards and upwards and we got on our feet again forgetting about the Michelin guide and
giving people what they wanted which was good food at a fair price and a relaxed fun atmosphere.
So…to me I report and observe bad management at all government levels and yes UK is going to
be in a sad mood unless many things are changed.
Yes to my mind Brexit is another disaster.


(Anna Watson) #41

Does the UK figure include the benefits to those on zero hours contracts who have had no work, ie unemployment benefit by another name?


(Barbara Deane) #43

Harry I feel that you are being picky.
I am highlighting the whole story of the polish people who came to UK to change
their lives and many took cleaning jobs and then worked on farms.
This is reality.
And yes I did have a fantastic life meeting ALL sorts of people…some have been fairly poor
but I have never been wealthy.
But I lived in London and have seen just about everything and met a lot of these workers who
pick in the fields.
No you do not appreciate my comments Harry.
And you make it very clear.
I was there…and I see it as it is now.


(Barbara Deane) #44

OH here comes Tim


(Barbara Deane) #45

I am happy enough not to add I thoughts on here…that is what you want.


(Timothy Cole) #47

I think the problems started nearly two decades a go under the Blair government when the benefits available simply mushroomed and it became just as viable to stay in bed and claim the dole etc as it did to work. At the same time EU free movement started a flood of eager young workers from Eastern Europe who didn’t mind working in the fields or care homes or hospitals or anywhere really so employers never struggled to fill vacancies. Now there’s a trickle of EU working migrants going in the opposite direction which may turn into a flood and it will be interesting to see whether the current unemployed youth in the UK seize the opportunity to fill the gaps that departing migrants leave behind.


(Barbara Deane) #48

Harry who the hell are the filfthy rich?
Yes when I came across the proper lazy people I gave them a proper
goodbye message…thank you for coming …but no thank you.
I had no room for lazy people in my life.
My answers to the topic brought you closer to the polish workers…that’s all.
Having said that there were 2 Slavinan people…one whom we trained as a chef.


(Barbara Deane) #49

There is no point …you do not want to hear the truth.


(Timothy Cole) #50

Oh dear, God is now being brought into the discussion.:grinning:


(Barbara Deane) #52

No I am not missing the point.
Adios Timmy and Harry I do not wish to argue with you…


(Dominic Best) #53

I think you are all trying to simplify a complex situation. The benefits system in the UK covers a huge range of people, many of those are actually in full time employment but entitled to extra benefits. This is another reason, alongside zero hours contracts, that makes comparing unemployment figures between countries impossible as well. Working in undesirable, often low paid jobs is something else. When Britain signed up to the EU and opened its doors to foreign workers it benefited immensely. Luckily it was a symbiotic arrangement, many of the Eastern Europe workers who arrived saw the low wages that they were being offered in Britain in the currency and living costs of their home country and many of these new arrivals were content and happy to work hard. The care services and agriculture took advantage of these newcomers. A huge amount of agriculture has been mechanised but there are many tasks that remain hands on. Often these tasks are physically demanding, uncomfortable and mind numbing. In return they often pay significantly over minimum wage but, understandably, are often not particularly attractive even to the unemployed. As the supply of willing labour dries up the knock on effect will hit everybody. Farmers will be able to produce less, supply will go down and prices will go up, more food will be imported, less exported and so on. It cannot simply be explained by the mindset of a lazy urban workforce who are unwilling to get their hands dirty.
The video is particularly interesting because it highlights the difficulties of a job that many people dismiss as simple unskilled labour. The young people involved were fit and motivated but struggled alongside the regular workforce who were used to getting on with it day after day after day.


(Anna Watson) #55

I agree with everything Dominic said but the problem I see is

The obvious argument is that there’s something not quite right in a system that makes it more attractive to be unemployed than to work when work is available.

But having said that, when I was a student I got a job in a factory one summer, I thought surely I would be able to hack doing a mind-numbing job for a month in order to save up enough to go on holiday. I couldn’t, I lasted one week. Even if the choice had been, earn enough to live on or starve, instead of, go on holiday abroad or don’t, I don’t know that I could have done it. Not because I thought it was beneath me. In a way I actually envied the other workers who could do it, they made me feel inadequate. Maybe it gets easier if you can stick it? But it made me feel like banging my head agains the wall, I’m not sure I would have stayed sane. So I don’t know what the answer is.


(Dominic Best) #56

Harry, everyone understands that argument. Are you sure that it’s that black and white in practise?
My sister lives in an area of high seasonal unemployment and has often received job seekers allowance. As a result she has ended up doing some pretty bizarre jobs, not because she wanted them, not because they paid significantly more than her benefit, not because they would look good on her CV but because she was told, in no uncertain terms, that if she refused the job her benefit and therefore her income would be cut. She has never been told that she must take up an agricultural position as her age and health would make her unsuitable for an occupation that requires young, fit workers. The majority of people look for work locally, very few town dwelling unemployed people are likely to apply for low paid, anti social jobs located perhaps hundreds of miles from their homes.
I spent the majority of my working life abroad as I found a position that paid me a lot more than the same job paid in the U.K. I would not have made that commitment if I felt that it was not to my advantage.