EV - buy or wait?

It’s difficult to say without knowing how much energy it takes to build an EV

150k miles at 50mpg is 139MWh by the way

Thanks Billy.
Now we are getting somewhere

Your number crunching is impressive and hopefully now some one might be able to come up with an MWh energy quantity for building an EV which should provide a definitive answer to the point I have raised.

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Oh dear. And that’s before counting the environmental impact of finding the raw materials needed for the battery packs.

The recycling of said EVs and batteries is going to consume a lot of eagerly which won’t be generated by magic fairly dust.

And doing nothing Will cost the earth and future generations.
There are figures and I will try to locate them but without full internet it maybe when I get home. Dont forget the scrapping of an ICE car uses a lot of energy and not fairy dust to.

New fangled tech, the electric motor and the lithium ion battery? Iron air batteries also been around a long time as have sodium improving them thats new.

Buy or wait? Wait of course.

A bloody sight less than finding oil, extracting oil, refining oil, transporting oil, burning oil and decommissioning the oil field afterwards.
Oh and the chems used to refine the oil once whereas EV’s use it for a long time then it can be reclaimed.
You are only reciting the lies of the oil and gas industry trying to protect its interests.
Dirty hydrogen their last ditch attempt.

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@Griffin36 But that article is all about the financing of the cars not actually about their energy efficiency!

I didn’t realise the topic was about their efficiency :wink::thinking:

To make this comparison you’d need a situation where you have equivalent EV and ICE models to compare - which might be a tricky starting point.

I’ve only thought about this for the i4 M50, and only for new, not used.

However the arguments given in the article were a) lack of incentives - well the i4 M50 is brand spanking new and I don’t think anyone who reserves one will get much of an incentive b) doesn’t get the best finance deals - nope, BMW do 2.9% on the cars they want to shift, the i4 M50 is 7.9% and c) 2nd hand EV’s don’t get the government grant - well, the i4 M50 costs way too much to get that so we seem to be in a pretty similar situation to that described in the article.

Compared with the current M440i gran coupe it was more expensive when I configured it - by about £8K but you might argue that the M4 competition spec is a better comparison point as it has almost exactly the same power and 0-60 time - with a similar configuration in terms of options the i4 M50 comes in a whopping £12k under the M4 competition.

The M4 competition emits 220g CO2 per km so that’s £1,345 for the first year’s road tax - then £480 a year, then £155 after that - so £2785 in road tax if we own the vehicle 4 years, or £4055 if we own the car 8 years (the battery warranty). The M440i is 182g/km so £895 in the first year - £2335 saved if we have the car four years, £3605 if we have it 8 years.

Running costs - the WLTP range for the 81kWh battery in the M50 is 316 miles or 305Wh/mile or roughly £420 a year for 8000 miles using the average UK price of 17.2p/unit

Petrol - hmmm, at £1.35/l 8000 miles in the M440i is going to cost about £1390 (or 970 saved a year) - the M4 competition is a bit more thirsty so £1704 for 8000 miles (£1284 a year saving).

So, compared with the M440i owning the car 8 years saves £11365 - easily offsetting the higher initial purchase, but owning it 4 years (the typical finance deal length) only saves £6215 - no quite enough to offset the extra cost TBH unless you win on servicing. EVs are supposed to be cheaper but this is BMW so they might find a way to make it the same.

Obviously compared with the M4 competition you start out quids in and it only gets better.

All of which goes to show you can prove anything with numbers :slight_smile:

It’s supposed to be about total cost of ownership so finance plays a part.

The killer will be depreciation. After 8 years it might be hard to get rid on an EV with no battery warranty left.

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Well if you overlook the reduction in hp of an ICE vehicle with the reduction in mpg and the large amount of moving parts that can need replacing.

Let’s equate any loss of range (1-2% per annum but up to nearly 10% in some instances**) to loss of HP.

EV’s have moving parts, of course. I guess the chief gain will be the loss of a complex transmission and motors are simpler than engines - but the motors in EVs do a lot of heavy lifting, no gearbox means massive amounts of torque needed at low revs and a huge range of RPM the motor must be able to operate at (again because there’s no transmission as a buffer).

I assume the motor voltage is the same as the battery voltage - 400V near enough, the M50 has one 250kW motor driving the rear and a 150kW motor driving the front axle so that’s 208 and 125A per phase - 400V, 200A control systems are complex bits of electronics which can and do fail (expensively if you are paying).

Damn, I’m arguing myself out of an EV here :slight_smile:

I wonder how long it will be before you need an Elec. Eng. degree before you work in a garage.

** - Nissan Leaf 2016/2017 30kWh units according to a 2018 report.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::+1:

Forget the leaf, no battery management

My Sister in Law had a Leaf - she had permanent range anxiety - just not worth it.

Range needs to be >300 miles minimum.

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Is the cost of a new battery pack going to be more or less than 8 years worth of engine oil, filters, a timing belt and possibly a clutch?

I’m not counting braking, suspension and tyre replacement costs as an EV will use the same as an ICE.

You won’t. Nobody requires a Mech. Eng degree to work on ICE vehicles at the moment, do they?

There will just be extra technician training and an FOGB sign saying “Isolate Battery Pack before DOING ANYTHING ELSE!” sign hanging from every ceiling and posted on every wall in every dealer workshop.

I should have put a smiley on that sentence.

Battery pack replacement is more akin to engine replacement in terms of price than the stuff you list - way more expensive than a timing belt and (if you are unlucky) clutch in 70k miles or so.

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This idea, apart from Leaf’s that the battery pack needs replacing at 8 years is not so far proving to be correct.
The number of battery recharge cycles would allow for 500,000 milers way past the average ICE car engine. The degradation figures are variable due to how often they are fast charged depth of charge etc. A chap with a Tesla used as a taxi in Cornwall under 5% degradation at 250,000 miles.
Then we have the possibility of just a few cells that need replacing and not the entire battery.
Garages are equipping themselves to carry out this work and at a fraction of the price of a new battery.

As I said forget the leaf, although if it suits your needs then fine but no escaping its short comings which caused a rift inside Nissan such that the team responsible for the Aria were allowed to fit active battery management.

300 why?
How often realistically do you do that journey?
When I am at home my maximum is 100 miles a week often less than 60. I like the convenience of travelling 300+ miles for the 2-5 times per year that I actually travel those distances but not prepared to pay £10000 more for that. Much rather have a faster charge capability and stop for a break every couple of hours.