I’ll give you the most extreme illustration of “seeing the bigger picture”. Anyone who claims to see the bigger picture is on a continuum, from inconsequential overview of, say, the effect of VAR on the game of football to the ultimate extreme example I will give.
Hitler had a distorted take on Darwin’s theory of evolution - survival of the fittest - which suited his purposes. In the final days of WW2 he used this view of evolution to justify allowing the war to continue, rather than sue for peace, on the grounds that, “seeing the bigger picture” in his Darwinian terms, the Germans had lost the war by virtue of being the weaker race and so deserved the fate which total defeat would wreak.
As Peter Goble rightly says, taking the exalted, ‘global’ (sic) view might - and did in the case if Hitler - attempt to justify a reaction contrary to our shared connection with every member of humanity.
And for those who have any level of agreement about the execution of this woman, I would like to know how right wing politics can be ruled out, considering that all the Federal executions that have taken place in recent (Trump) years have been in the Southern (ex-Confederate) States.
The problem with a thread like this, as someone has already pointed out, the personal is inextricably bound up with what might be termed the political.
Views on this subject cannot be aired in a vacuum devoid of personal ‘colour’. I agree with the two comments by John Scully, tho’ they too might be interpreted as personal, attacks or otherwise.
Thank you for nobly sacrificing yourself by getting vaccinated. Enjoy the collateral benefits
I am glad you can - meanwhile I have a good number of old fairly fragile colleagues who trot off to work every day to spend up to 9 hours in a smallish room with about 35 young adults, who could be vaccinated in about May, I wish they could be vaccinated now too.
I don’t think that it is a matter of politics, but having read the article referenced above in this discussion, perhaps more a matter of putting this demented soul out of her misery.
Clearly the woman was mentally ill, having been diagnosed with a list of various conditions during her many years in prison custody, but one notes that the Guardian article makes no mention of any progress having been made as a result of treatment. Had the woman’s mental health been improved, then I am sure that such would have been included in the article.
Sadly, there are many people who have suffered physical, sexual, and mental abuse during their formative years, but the vast majority do not go on to commit horrific future crimes themselves.
Childhood abuse is not an excuse to commit crime, although it may in some cases be the reason for criminality, it is still not an excuse.
Accepting that the woman was mentally deranged to such an extent that her condition was irrecoverable, then the question arises as to what to do with her. Keep her locked up for another 40 years in addition to the 16 she had already spent in custody ?
What would you do with your deranged dog ? Imprison it in a kennel forever or have it euthanised ? I know which option I would choose.
Also, let us not forget that this case has been through the appeals procedure in the US courts without any change to the original sentencing. The matter has been extensively reviewed, and American society, through the US justice system, has decided that euthanasia is the appropriate measure to take.
Jesus, you’re pushing the boat out there Robert. If one accepts that she’s not responsible for her actions, and I would lean in that direction, then she should be kept as comfortable as possible (I mean in a mental trauma way) and allowed to live out her life. Who knows what pain she goes through everyday, it could be terrible but having a death sentence hanging over her can’t help.
I don’t think the death penalty is a punishment nor a deterrent, it’s IMO just revenge.
Also, to hark back to the “seeing the bigger picture” debate, IMO based on the death and misery they have knowingly caused to innocent women and children Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Blair, Trump, Pompeo and many other wealthy, privileged white politicians should be on a gurney before this woman. They have no excuses for what they have done.
I have been conflicted for many years over capital punishment and perhaps more so with the rise of Islamic terrorist incidents that have killed so many innocent victims and where some of the perpetrators are clearly not mentally ill in the simplest sense.
Unfortunately society has allowed the value of life to be diminished to such an extent that we have become culpable to the constant killings that we see every day so on balance I don’t see we have any other choice other than to keep people locked up rather than inflict the ‘ultimate’ punishment.
The planet is very over populated, Maybe thats why nature has unleashed covid. Getting rid of serial bad people is an emotional topic.
This tortured soul has suffered a tragic lack of childhood. Did the US try rehabilitation?
It is hard to see how a retired youth worker in the UK refusing a vaccine, would benefit your French teaching colleagues.
II is also hard to see what contribution this makes to the thread.
I expect you feel you scored a point by your snide personal attack. I hope you are able to restrain yourself from scoring points by trying to shame pupils whom you take a personal dislike to. Unfortunately I have come across teachers who do that.
Yes John, that is indeed an option, but firstly it is necessary for society in general to be prepared to finance such an option. Clearly this woman could not be kept amongst the general prison population lest she be subject to even further torture and injury. Therefore it would be necessary to keep her in solitary confinement for her own protection, and this invariable means 23 hours a day in a cell 8 feet by 12, which would certainly not be good for anyone’s mental health year upon year. Perhaps one could build an individual prison apartment for her within an existing facility, but the financial cost would be considerable and there would be many other ‘lifer’ inmates who would very much like the same facilities.
An alternative would be to keep the woman constantly medicated to such an extent that she was no longer deemed a danger, but then all medications have side effects, so would this in effect simply be euthanasia in a slower and less obvious manner I wonder.
To be honest I think that we are all perhaps fishing in the dark in relation to what the appropriate fate for such an offender as Lisa Montgomery should be.
The Guardian article raises as many, if not more, questions as it answers. The story as it is related is in great part unsubstantiated and one sided. There is no mention of Montgomery’s age when the alleged abuse stopped, and what happened during the intervening years between then and her committing the heinous crime at the age of 36. Did she receive any treatment during that time ? Was there any prosecution of her step-father or mother, and if not, then why not.
The story as reported also has some questionable elements. Apparently, when Montgomery’s mother found her daughter being raped by her husband, the mother fetched a gun and held it to the head of the child ?? So presumably the mother blamed her own child for what was happening ?
The Guardian tells us that Montgomery was " involuntarily sterilized after the birth of her fourth child", but gives no details as to how that came about. In a country of ‘for profit’ healthcare where a doctor’s main business expense is malpractice insurance, there must have been a court order for such an involuntary sterilisation to have taken place, yet no details of the whys and wherefores of those proceedings are given.
We are told that Montgomery’s mother sold her daughter’s body to the plumber and electrician, so who are these people and where is their corroborative testimony ?
Additionally, the Guardian article casts doubt upon the competency of the one of the original defense lawyers by using a statistic of “having more of his clients sentenced to death in federal court than any other defence lawyer in America”. Could it be that this attorney is willing to take on the cases that others decline perhaps ?
The story related by the Guardian without bringing corroborative evidence to the table, is what it is – a story, and is one that sounds rather like a compilation from some BDSM website.
It is not unknown for some offenders to concoct a tale of woe to justify, or at least excuse their own actions, and by repeating this story over and over again to themselves, they can become convinced of its truth sufficient to be able to convince a subsequent interviewer.
We do not know if this is the case or not, but what we do know is that there were court proceedings resulting in involuntary sterilisation, and divorce court proceedings, and that in neither case did the situation seem sufficiently serious to warrant further action.
We also know that the original trial jury did not believe the tale that was told to them, and that the subsequent sentencing hearing clearly did not believe the defendants story either.
Years later, and after extensive representations made by the defense, the Appeal Court seemingly did not believe the story as it was related, and thus upheld the original conviction and sentence.
Clearly, and whatever the cause, Lisa Montgomery was a mentally deranged person who committed a heinous crime. American society, through it’s justice system, decided the outcome that it felt to be appropriate. Whether we agree with it or not is a matter of personal opinion, but we should in any case respect the decision taken by US society.
. If so, let me know and I’ll delete that, too.
