As usual Brian, very informed. I am thinking about your points. There is somewhere between having rights, wanting rights eloquently expressing needs and desires and the complicated world of national politics.
I too have worked with street kids - in Africa, Asia and USA, and currently in Europe.
I will review my experiences and with your information I might be swayed, but I doubt it. Having also been around loads of educated, politically aware teenagers I think the wisdom of the ages is that fresh brains are too malleable to judge the corrupt practices of complex political systems.
I’d rather have the age raised to thirty, maybe even 50. Experience has to count for something.
I think we may have a new thread here.
You certainly raised a storm with your questions about Brexit. I’ve learned a lot.
I always wonder if this site is recognized as more than a place for comparisons between UK and France.
For another place to live besides France I am very partial to Arusha in Tanzania. Something about the altitude and sunshine makes for a very heavenly ambiance. Being so close to nature is humbling in a way a western city could never be. I like the feeling of being just out of reach of the stars, oil lamps, smoky camp fires, goats in the street and on the table. Elephants roaring, giraffes nibbling, and hyenas always on,the prowl. Yes, the foothills of snowy Kilimanjaro seem to have it all.
There you are wrong John. They seriously lead the way in convincing themselves how important they are ;-)
But then I am biassed having worked with children's movements, especially street and working children's movements, that are actively fighting for their rights themselves, When a 10 year old child activist stands up and makes speech in India your heart beats an extra time. They are not prepared or prompted by adults. Whilst we lived in Wales we were lucky enough to be where the Welsh children's movement, Funky Dragon and the Welsh Children's Parliament were based. Although they had an adult director, necessary under charity law, they carried out their own political campaigning for their rights. hear an eight year old stand up in front of more than 100 parliamentarians and speak from their heart. But my earliest experiences were around 1980 when the Peruvian street and working children started their own association and that kind of movement became a standard throughout South and Central America. There are many other examples. Young people do not need to be a specific age, they do not need to be literate even, they just need to understand and everywhere there are many young people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder who are decision makers who make far more important survival decisions every day of their lives. There is no such thing as too young, but if we must have age lines like alcohol, driving and marriage that in several parts of the western democratic world are higher than the age at which they can or must serve their nation by doing military service (OK, most countries just males, but increasingly females too) then perhaps we must think again. The mean age for entering the military in the western world is 17, that means to possibly die, mean age for alcohol provisional driving licences and marriage 18.
Sure brains are still developing but then neurologists, cognitive psychologists and other tell us that cerebral development is from early pregnancy but only post-natal measurement is possible and last on average 28 years! So, the only compromise I can suggest is to extend childhood to 30 to be on the safe side and so that they don't have to make decisions that their elders can make better for them. I bet that idea would go down really, really well with young people ;-)
Does being out of uk for more than 15 years necessarily make somebody old and foolish.
A youth in mid-teens right now was only 10yrs old 5 years ago.
With their brains still developing making decisions even for their own future is an unfair responsibility.
Not allowed to drive or drink, to marry or have sex, they are allowed to vote.!!!
Uh uh, no.
I hope so Peter but why would the EU bother? What does the UK have to offer that’s important to the EU (or even the US, China or India) and remember, the EU has so many other internal issues to focus on. I think the Brexiters are totally over estimating their importance in the World. Sad as it is, ther are few areas that the UK leads in.
Not my government anyway. If Boris ends up PM, IDS chancellor, Gove home secretary and Grayling back to justice then I shall be applying for Swiss nationality immediately. The thought sends shivers down my spine!
Not “our” Government thank goodness. I’m reminded of a cult film of the seventies “the ruling class”.
When you look at the sorry parade of Brexit MPs: just think, they could be our next Government. Heaven help us!
Joan, 16 and 17 year olds have a future before them. Those who are 'politically literate', and many actually are, should be given a chance to vote on their future. It worked very well in the Scottish referendum with a good youth turnout. Several countries are in the process of lowering voting ages, the EU elections will all eventually include 16 year olds. Personally I believe that franchise should be lifelong with people deciding when and if to register to vote when they are ready or never, many would choose the latter no doubt. I can recommend a good book that will inform you on such notions: The History and Theory of Children’s Citizenship in Contemporary Societies, published by Springer in 2013. Don't dismiss the young, we were just that once, and there is a lot of mileage in the old idiom 'there's no fool like an old fool'. Governments are full of old folk.
True enough Shirley but the reverse could also happen. The UK and France could quite easily come up with an agreement on Trade, Immigration and Social matters if it's deemed beneficial to both nations. Maybe we should be more positive until the possible Brexit actually happens ?
Yes Peter, and so God help us all, wherever we live - because a Brexit will definitely affect expats who are not also French nationalised! The borders will work on a 2-way basis and the U.K could and possibly will make its own laws that could stop expats returning permanently - certainly if IDS puts the boot in!
Some 16 year olds are clueless as are some 60 year olds, some of whom are running the country !
Joan the 16 year olds may not know More, but of those who are interested because it’s Their Future not ours at stake -I bet they are watching and listening to an extent for whichever way the vote goes. Look how interested and involved the Scottish youngsters were when there was a Referendum on Independence there! Most of today’s 16 year olds and possibly younger are hell of a lot more savvy then I was about many worldwise things at the same age back in the early- mid 60’s. That what a convent education did for me - left me none the wiser about e outside world back then. I had a lot of catching up to do in adulthood. At least now kids are able to make informed choices!
Joan, you under estimate how savvy our children and grandchildren are. Mine are Scottish and they worked AS out in about 10 seconds.
In any event, its their future, not mine or yours I suspect.
And since we voted to join the Common Market/EU we are hardly a good example.
And finally, I belong to lots of blogs, many talk about nothing than the EU and the stuff on there is really mostly complete nonsense, elderly people who are badly informed with nonsense statistics and faulty logic, etc.
No doubt somebody is writing the same about me on another blog! I appreciate you cannot quite believe that, but its true! :):)
Must rush and tell him why he, almost always a he, is wrong!
Do you really think a 16 yr old will know more than a conscientious Brit expat.
I strongly doubt you can prove your comments.
Imagine leaving a nation’s fate in the hands of half formed Demi-adults, rather than permitting and valuing the wisdom of the well-travelled and the well-educated overseas residents.
Of course this is just what the politicians want, ignorant electors, swayed by a few pithy sound-bites. They do not want voters who can make informed choices.
I bet Hillary Clinton and her handlers wish she had such a focus group to manipulate.
Those of you who worry about The Donald, better worry about who he runs against. Get rid of her - and he will never win. Keep her, you are voting for Trump.
…Brian unfortunately that is exactly what’s happening in USA with Trump - I hate to think of him as President, unless as suggested yesterday it’s his way of Campaigning - using the Media doesn’t cost him! but he is getting the Public masses behind him!
Well Jenny, I haven’t yet lived outside the UK for 15 years, I have family and finances there, my UK State Pension was worked and paid both for and is paid from there. I was born there I AM both BRITISH and PATRIOTIC so with those facts I’ve just mentioned I have a stake in and as much right as anyone still living there has!
My only currently physical connection with France re voting, is that I live here now, have never worked or paid taxes here, not contributed other than to the retail sector, so why should I vote for how France moves forward but not UK. I can find no logical meaning or fact in your response above!
There is logic in Local Voting - because it is where you are permanently residing I.e. located!
Jennie
I disagree since I for one am deeply involved in things that take place in the UK - its a result of the wired up world - so I do want the right to have my voice heard in issues that affect me.
But then of course, I cannot reasonably also have the right to vote in French elections.
Or indeed vice versa.
Both (all) countries need a more sophisticated way of dealing with this issue since so many individuals live outside their country of birth, especially in the EU.
It is an issue that has been looked at by the EU but every country seems to have its own set of rules and in the absence of a EU electoral register, it is obviously a can of worms.
Of course that can be done but you can hear "the Brexit crowd" having a field day with that can't you, let alone "we have a right to privacy crowd" ignoring what information they put on the internet about themselves not least on this blog of course.
The beauty of this all, if that word can be used, is that the Brexiters are all so at odds with each other that anybody who relies on them needs their heads checking. The only consistent ones seem to be Farage using his 'pub bore' sound bites and Galloway blathering his usual doggerel. The more these idiots are given public exposure and contradictory and sensationalist statements examined then the less supporters they will have. It is begin to look like Brexit is the last hiding place of nutters. Good!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12177104/David-Lidington-Britons-forced-to-stop-living-in-France-and-Spain-if-Brexit.html Latest from the Telegraph- what would the rights of UK expats in France be after an exit? Unknown at least.