Healthcare in France

Health Care & Carte Vitale
21

Can I ask you please Veronique why you took it personally ? Did I cite your name ? I don't target anybody ! I just speak from my own point of view, and even when I say "american" , "anglo-saxon" or whatever, I am not targeting. I am just speaking in a general way. Now each case is different. What should be interesting indeed, is where you come from, what is your country policy, why you are in france, if you speak french and interact with french people, government, education, business system and incorporation, all these things are important in my view to be able to juge a country. I see that you lived in many countries, I didn't. Did you have the opportunity to go on your own, look for a job, rent an apartment on your own, were you married, how old were you then, all these criterias, in my opinion, count to be able to make an objective jugement. I know some people who went to NY for 1 month, and they know America. I am not saying that you are the same, but I am saying that you have to compare apples to apples.

As a french native, when I came back to France, I staid in a hotel for a year because nobody wanted to rent me an apartment, although I showed references from my american bank. That was not enough for the french. In america, they just see if you are a good payer, on their gigantic computer, and they don't care how you get your money. It's not their business. That I think is called" respect of your privacy". But not in France. They want to know what is inside your shirt ? And for me who is a free spirit, that is freedom, liberty. In america, as long as you pay your debt, they respect you and give you what you need. Discrimination is a crime so when you go to look for an apartment, one fact counts: that you are the first one and that your credit is good. NOT TRUE IN FRANCE.


So, believe me I am not putting any jugement on you. I don't know you and in fact I received so many negative and hateful answers that I finally decided to write only one note for everybody. But that doesn't surprise me: we are in a "socialistic era" and in a " politically correct" era. So anybody like me who wants freedom - ie. capitalism - is rejected and hated. Capitalism is not money: look at the socialist government in france; there are no richer !

A last thing: In france if you are less than 45 years old you might have your choice. After that you are considered as a "senior". A friend of mine who is a manager in an "HLM" company - in fact there are so many building that belong to the government here you wonder" and she said she has received a note saying that over 45 years old, you are entitle to some benefit because you are considered a "senior". Think about that !

22

This year here or UK? There and I'd be in a queue and not seeing specialists, including a couple who are world leaders in their field. Like Catharine and you Véronique, I am happy to pay my way in this system too.

I've worked alongside MSF people, one English ex-student in particular, but those trained in France were brilliant, as too people working for the WHO Global Programme against AIDS, so my opinion is very positive. In the 30 plus countries I have worked in and the many more been in professionally, where and when I had anything to do with medical people in the field the French, USA, Canadian and Cuban medical people have all impressed me most of all, without discrediting others. I am at a loss to understand how anybody can be so angry with what is available here. Having said that, some mistakes and a fair nasty cover up occurred with me this year, but that is down to one man and the colleagues covering for him, hardly the fault of an entire system.

23

Hi Veronique

Thanks for that and if I have missed anything and any of those comments have been directed at you personally, please do let me know and the issue will be addressed. I apologise if I have missed this but hey, James and I are only human and our eye has been especially off the ball this week as he is in the UK dealing with a family health emergency. And as many SFN' ers know my personal experiences of the UK system have been rubbish and the French one great - hence my previous post about being happy to pay my taxes....

If any comments have been made that you feel have been addressed to you personally, I would appreciate it if you could copy and paste them to James or I via PM. I'd like to stop any further 'mud-slinging' as this is not really what SFN is about.

Have a lovely evening Cx

24

Yup OK I shan't make any more remarks that could be interpreted as ad feminam attacks.

I was delighted to learn that I am brainwashed or stupid as well as narrow-minded or possibly a parasitic fin-de-race aristo because I don't spit on the health system here. Perhaps it is because I'm an easily-fobbed-off country bumpkin, seeing I live in La France Profonde an'all. I can live with that. Maybe it is because I am all those things at once that doctors speak to me in a perfectly normal and informative way about some pretty specialised medical scenarii eg my parents and their terminal illnesses (my mother is taking about 20 years to die over here, she'd be dead already elsewhere).

From my personal experience of living, studying and working in the UK, France, Germany, Belgium, Egypt, Syria, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan where I worked with MSF (they are doctors, by the way, and mainly French), I think the French health-care system and the professionals who work within it have nothing to be ashamed of and compare favourably with everywhere I have spent any length of time (and I also mean places other than those mentioned above).

Nor do I see that work, effort and brains go unrewarded in France. But to each his or her own explanation for what is wrong with society. It strikes me France is possibly less wrong than quite a lot of places. I am happy to pay my taxes so that we have a decent health service, trou de la sécu notwithstanding.

Sur ce I'm back at work after a week off for a spinal injury (well explained, well-diagnosed, well-treated and well-reimbursed) so I'll leave you to it.

The grass looks green enough on my side of the fence.

25

Hi Michle

Please don't take this the wrong way and please don't think that it is because I disagree with you ( far from it on many levels) but please don't use caps (except for the very occasional word obviously) as it is considered to be shouting and thus rude. And thus will get people's backs up!

Thank you!

Cx

26

First of all I didn't want to insult anyone ! Perhaps I have been quite direct in saying what I feel and know - by heart about france - but saying the truth is not insulting. I know that most people want to be "politically correct" but that doesn't solve anything.

I was talking in general even when I say "american". I lived long enough in America to know what I could do there with no money, no papers, no family, and I know what I could do here - being a french native - and that is almost "zero" because of the government policies and control. If any of you don't agree, I understand.


Also, the reason I responded that way, some people answered to my discussion blog in a very impolite way and somehow insulting. Wheather you - I mean anybody -accept it or not, there IS NO EQUIALITY IN THIS WORLD, and the French "liberty fraternity equality" is a true "b.....".


When I said that American have money I have to explain myself: when you are courageous, when you work hard in america you make much more money than france and can succeed in anything, even by selling ice-creams ! NOT TRUE IN FRANCE. I know. I didn't target anyone particularly, I spoke in a general way: of course there are - the cliche words for ' everything everywhere. But in a certain extent.

I admire americans because whatever money they made, however rich they are = they made it on their own, very often starting very low and miserably ! NOT TRUE IN FRANCE: YOU ARE RICH ONLY IF YOU ARE PART OF THE ELITES AND THE ELITES HERE IS NOT BECAUSE THEY MADE IT, IT'S BECAUSE THEY COME FROM ARITOCRATIE - Drinking the people blood !

And as for Napoleon it is absolutely true: read your history books !

And I am not angry because I have an aneuysm. I have been discusted with france since I was 20 years old: lack of opportunity, discrimination, crumbs given, no good salary, etc etc etc.

This is why as soon as I could I went to America. I have a daughter who is extremely talented in design, and here they wanted to put her in a secretary school. I sent her in england to have her fashion design degree. The same for me, I had to go to america to get my interior design license.

So don't tell me I don't know my country ! The people who might be happy - and again I don't point at anyone - but my experience showed me is either people who are worst in their own country or the ones who come here for love, work, retirement - homesickness of the old country that they never knew -, but rarely, at least from america - because they are fed up and discusted of their country. In france, a lot of people, french people, leave because they are discusted or they are tired of paying so much money in taxes !

And the healthcare is poor and mediocre whatever you agree or not. I compare of course with America, but also with the Netherlands where the doctors are top, and I guess England must be OK although I don't know it and I won't juge it.

So enough of being "politically correct". THANK YOU

27

Thanks for that! Sheila is the photo expert if you have trouble turning yourself the other way up! x

28

Before this discussion goes any further, it might help if I point out that a diagnosis of a brain aneurysm is a frightening thing, particularly if it might burst - it is like walking around with a ticking bomb in your head. Add to that the daunting prospect of having to have brain surgery to sort out the faulty blood vessel. And with any surgery, there is a risk - all patients (in most countries I would think) would have to sign the necessary consent forms which include indemnifying the surgeons, etc.

I didn't know I had a brain aneurysm until one night, watching TV, I had the most horrendous pain in my head. The pain continued for three or four more days- it was so bad and the doctor couldn't figure out why but said I should admit myself to hospital. A few days later, I signed that consent form, had surgery and am now the proud owner of a titanium clip on the offending blood vessel.

So, whilst I don't wish to frighten anyone - if you need the surgery, get it done. If you have the choice as to where you have the surgery, go for it. I didn't have that choice - there was only one hospital in my country that has the skill set to perform such surgery.

Finally, I recovered well and was back to work (part-time at first) within a few weeks, and haven't looked back - we have now moved to France and life is good. Do remember that when someone is diagnosed with any serious illness, it is very frightening. Being frightened can also make you angry.......

29

Thanks Sheila I have managed to upload a picture but it is sideways on. However, it shows me to be the 50 year old woman I claim to be (as evidenced by the balloons in a 50 shape!). I will probably seek out a better pic and upload it when I get a chance. Thanks for the offer.

30

Hi Amanda. Feel free to give me a shout if you need any help with uploading profile picture.

31

In Veronique's defence - Michelle has been guilty of insulting whole groups of people and cultures.

examples:

As for the French who are so happy with these systems: either they are from the elites, or they are from the poor and not very educated to be able to think and analyze what a poor healthcare they have for the huge money they pay for it.

the French who are talking here, either they are from the elite circles, or they know only the French system and have been brainwashed about it

When I think that France wants to give lessons about occupation when all they did was to occupy many countries and make wars ! Look at the communes, Napoleon, and the whole History of France ! There is nothing to be proud of !

As for your photo request - I will post my most flattering photo if I can work out how to do it!

32

Veronique - please desist from making personal comments * you also have a major attitude problem* as this contravenes our T&C. Please check the nettiquette page if you require clarification.

33

Amanda - please can you upload a profile photo. Thank you.

34

Michelle why are you here ? And if you hate France so much perhaps you should take heed and accept that you are not suited to life here ? Perhaps it would be better to go and seek "better" health care in the States or elsewhere ?

35

Well I'm not a rich American, nor indeed an Anglo-Saxon, I'm a neither poor nor rich employed-full-time French person with 2 Master's degrees, a family to support and another 20-odd years to go before I retire. I have to say that what you have written rather begs the question of what you expect doctors to do about your aneurysm; risk-assessment should tell you that there is a considerable chance of a bad outcome on the operating table just as there is a statistically significant chance that you may suffer a rupture and an equally bad outcome should nothing be done at all. Similarly you may have it fixed and be fine just as you may live a good long time and die of something else like other people. It is your choice as an adult. Also you may get better treatment in America, you are indeed convinced that this is the case: so why not go there?

"So now I am talking about me: I speak and write English perfectly and of course French. I have a license at the Sorbonne in literature and languages. What's wrong with me?"

1. Reply to first sentence: Re-read your text. No you don't. I won't list the glaring examples.

2. You have an aneurysm and you aren't happy about it, which is understandable. BUT you also have a major attitude problem which is probably why people including doctors who may just have other patients to treat aren't necessarily obsequious with you.

36

Wow, all I can say is you do sound sad to be here in france and rather hankering after your old life in the USA. I work full time here and have nthing but praise for the health service here, that saved my husbands life this year by sending us a samu ambulance when the results of his blood test showed he had had a silent MI. His treatment at our home and is hospital was superb and way better than in the UK, when I expect he would have died that summer weekend as no ne would have been on call to review his blood results.

The US is not so great, I have many friends and colleagues there and have been frankly horrified at some of the things they and their families have had to put up with, such as a good friend, the mother of young children having been diagnosed with a brain tumour, having to go back to work because having used all her "sick" leave, she either returned to work or lost her job, and no job, no insurance, no treatment.

There are mistakes made everywhere, diagnosing an aneurism is no so easy without very good MRI and unfortunatly some of the symptoms have many different possible diagnoses, so I am truly sorry for you. Howevern I have found the surgeons here to be great, quite willing to spend time talking with me and my husband about our treatment options including the risks..... although I know that Doctors here in emergancy situations can act in the best interests of the patient without needing a next of kin consent.

I worked in the NHS for many many years and I know the healthcare system here has some huge advantages over the UK NHS and the US insurance based service, although perhaps in Obamacare gets implemented perhaps the poor in the US will get some treatment

37

It depends what they compared and from whom they learned ? From the elites from France ? or perhaps when they treat a flue ? Did they compare medical equipment, professionalism, information given to patients, length of time they give to their patients, prevention tests, and on and on !


My experiences and my friend's tell me more than any health organization ! This is like the UNITED NATION ! There is nothing like this stupid and unfair organization and what they say or do is unbelievable !

38

Dear Jayne:

I read your comment and I am sorry I didn't reply right away. I do have health problems on my own. I finally answered to all of those who don't agree with me, but at least you are understood that our system makes people inefficient and not really concerned with your health. Anyway, whatever they do, they are not afraid of the law because the law protects them. You are right about Paris and the surrounding areas, but I believe that since they want to cut expenses, they have fewer staff, they hire young inexperienced employes that they pay very little, and since they are all government employes and cannot be fired, well, what the heck! I don't know England, but you know I am surprised because a person has, like me, a cerebral aneurysm, and she has been very well treated. They gave her a lot of information before operating on her.

In france, people don't even know what they did on them or almost nothing. Do you think I'll give my head to a doctor who would put me to sleep and know nothing on what he would do on me ?

Free everything ends up not to be free at all: bad doctors, bad nurses, mediocre and older equipment - I know that my MRI has been done on a 1.5t instead of a 3D and that is why they cannot decide where and what is the exact size of my aneurysm.

Only a doctor from NY called me from NY for FREE, staying one hour with me, and he gave me a prescription for a CT-SCAN angio with a 3D -Computed tomography angiography. I found only one center which would do that and not with the latest equipment like substracted angiography. I learned a lot in english sites - american mostly - but not a thing in French or very general information.


I lived in America and I paid only 100 dollars a month for an HMO, and this HMO was 10 times better than the SOCIAL SECURITY in France. I had tests you cannot dream they give you here. In Paris, I have a friend who had a polype in her uterus and while this surgeon took the polype, he made a hole in her uterus neck (I don't know the word in english). A friend had had a knee operation, since then he cannot walk at all, and on, and on, and on.

Plus in America, they respect your privacy: you are not necked in front of 10 student doctors. Stay in the hospital here, and you'll see how you are treated.

Now for cancer, I heard that there is an association in the US saying that chemiotherapy kills the good cells and they are against it. There are pills now that are better than chimio, but expensive. I don't think these pills exist in France. Also a lot of people are cured in cancer in America, I don't think there are so many here.

So my advice to you is : check on american website to see what they do for your kind of cancer. I learned in a way not how to cure myself, but to tell the doctors what I saw and what I want them to do for my aneurysm. Of course they hate it to see how much I know, and they almost dismiss me in 10 mn.

I never saw a such arrogant country as it is in France. Sorry, I am French and I came to hate my own country. I have proofs of what I say, letters from doctors, etc.

39

I am not American, I am not rich, I am a self-employed (AE) researcher but have had problems earning income since the economic crisis to begin with, then my shoulder was broken and why was one of the questions. I have seen specialists, a couple of them with good international reputations even such as the shoulder specialist in Bordeaux, a lot of money has been spent on me by the French state, yes the expensive mutuelle as well, and I do not go around being the poor Anglais who cannot speak French. I do not find the France you describe PLUS I do not have the endless waits for specialist appointments I would expect from the UK NHS or even the rather ponderous German system. With a Swiss wife and children, we could have run off there, but most of what I have needed would have required very expensive private medicine and a good insurance backup that is far more expensive than here. I really do not know where your perception of your country comes from, albeit I might well agree with the little bit about the history to some extent.

40

Sorry for the delay Andre. I am French although I lived in America for 25 years. That is my point: all this paper work, like we are begging. Plus when you go to the hospital, it takes a minimum of 1, 2 and very often 6 months if you want to see an experienced doctor such as a professor.


Most doctors in hospitals are not the best doctors or if they are, they see you like "travail a la chaine". Believe me, for 10 years I told them I had headaches, fatigue, etc, and they all said it's nothing, I am unhappy to be in France and I am depressed. However, only then, when I forced them to do an IRM - MRI in english - they found an aneurysm, a cerebral aneurysm. They don't do extensive tests to save money. I have friends - french friends - who had the same experience.

When I try to ask them questions, technical questions about this, they answer in general and very poorly. I learned about this a lot, not from the french doctors, but from american sites and I even belong to an association, existing only in america, called " brain aneurysm foundation", and if anybody wants to check the quality of care and information, they should go to this site and learn. After six months, I finally understood a lot and a doctor from NY called me for free to tell me " be careful, don't operate" . In France, they all want to operate on me, but I have to sign an agreement first they they won't be responsible if I die on the operation table.

Plus the radiologist who did the IRM in November didn't see my aneurysm which was there and it's only in May 2012, after a second IRM - made on old equipment - not a 3d equipment - that they finally said I have an aneurysm which was there in NOVEMBER 2011.

The same with my heart arteries: No one here, for years, did anything to check my arteries. Only in Brussels, I finally saw a cardiologist who wanted to do that, and I have to ask permission from the SS although the European agreement is that you can be treated anywhere in Europe. But the french refuse you that privilege.

About the poor temper of our elite doctors, I even have a letter from a doctor from the hopital La salpetriere saying that since I am asking a lot of questions - now, what I have is a very dangerous problem - an aneurysm rupture can happen any time, anywhere, in or outside the operation table - , he would refer me to someone else.

So I really have reasons not to trust our system.