I am sorry I made some mistakes and my note went without my being able to correct my typing mistakes: I wanted to say: 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 14th, 15, 16th and some of the 17th arrondissement. Everywhere in the suburbs but some like Marly Le Roi or Saint germain en lay, - in the northern, east, and even south part of Paris and many french provinces it's definitively different. Look around you, go to these places, go to doctors in these areas, and then you could perhaps disagree with me ! It is like some in New York would compare New York with Dijon. We have to compare x versus x, and not x versus y.
Thank you for answering my post.
Sorry of the delay: but seeing how many disagree with me, I wanted to make sure you'll understand my analysis. So I took my time to answer all of you. If you are displeased - I am sorry about that, but this is your privilege. However, we don't know the same "France".
Since you are many who don’t agree with me, please allow me to tell you why I have made this analysis.
Everyone is entitled to his / her opinion of course. Now how did he / she got her opinion, is the important thing.
Many of you perhaps don’t know that France is a very discriminatory society: If you are an American with a lot of money your experience in healthcare in France of course will be extremely different from these poor and low middle class FRENCH (more than 70% of the population). For you, the rich people from America or England, who pay definitively more but are treated much better in your countries, of course French healthcare is extremely cheap, is even given for free.
If you live in the 14thm, 15th, 15th, 15th, in rich areas, you have two advantages: the French doctors are scared to death of lawsuits from American (but not from French who won’t ever be able to sue them because these doctors are protected by the government), and also some of them know how they are treated in America so they might be some kind of ashamed to treat the same way they treat French people. They know that they can get away with French people. They are not sure about Anglo-Saxon foreigners!
As for the French who are so happy with these systems: either they are from the elites, or they are from the poor and not very educated to be able to think and analyze what a poor healthcare they have for the huge money they pay for it.
Do you know that now French doctors if you want a good one is not free! There are “sector 2 or sector 3”. While for you rich Americans it’s peanuts, for French people, most of them barely above the poverty level, this is a big deal and cut in their poor budgets.
Try to understand that for you, rich Americans who come here when you are retired or with your American corporation, this is not the true French life. Most of you don’t even speak French! So you speak with this exotic American accent for which most French people go “gaga” for it, and you just get anything you want.
I know, because, speaking English with no accent, I tried it and got away with many thing, even return merchandise they won’t take from me when I spoke French to them.
I have an advantage; I speak English with no accent, at least not for the regular French people. I lured many of them that way making them think that I was a Native American.
You can go to French luxury stores to see that almost no clients or visitors are French: go to galeries Lafayette: you’ll hear only English speaking people. French people can’t afford to go there!
So, my point is, for an American and English person (although I don’t know England but I am guessing after reading some of the comments), paying 120 Euros for a doctor is nothing when in America, depending if you are in NY or in ARIZONA, you’ll pay between perhaps 250 and 600 dollars the visit according to the doctor’s specialty.
However, in America, although a lot of people don’t say it or don’t know it, most have insurance from their companies or even by themselves.
Now let’s be frank: all is a question of money. When you make more money, you can afford a private insurance, and if you add all the taxes and high price goods we pay in France, you’ll see that a private insurance cost definitely less than the government healthcare. Plus you are free to choose and you are respected for it. Additionally, when you are 17 or 25 or even 35 years old, most of the time you don’t go to doctors much, so in France you pay since you are born, and that is a real fortune.
HOW DO I KNOW THAT? I lived 1/3 of my life in America, 1/3 of my life in France, 1/3 of my life in other countries.
And I never went with the security of a husband, or with a company: I went alone with my back pack and especially when I went in America, with almost no money.
Medicine in France is mediocre. They treat you for a flue, or something benign. Now if you have a grave illness, you’ll know how poor they are in advanced medicine, equipment, etc.
To summarize;
In France, from the day you are born, you pay for your insurance and most of the time you don’t need much. Now in exchange for this insurance, here is the price;
- VAT: almost 20 %
- Everything cost 3 to 4 times more than in America: computers, electronics, even food and now clothes – before they used to be cheaper for clothes.
- You pay 30% of your salary for social coverage
- You pay, when you are single, 2 months / per year for your income tax
And that is a fraction of what you pay, because on top of that:
- Telephone calls now are overtaxed
- Utilities are much higher than in the states
- Rent now in Paris is as expensive as in NY City
-
- THE DIFFERENCE WITH AMERICA: PEOPLE DON’T HAVE A GOOD SALARY. The average salary in France is 1500 to 2000 Euros / month before all taxes.
you earn for the same job – when you have opportunities to change jobs or open your own business or go to college even at 40 years old - where in France you wouldn’t dream of it: on the contrary your company will ask you, in exchange for peanuts but for French people peanuts are a big plus to go on retirement at an early age so they can hire young people at even less salary, when already the salaries of a senior – yes in France you are considered senior at 45 years old.
Now when I say, most doctors don’t take the time with you, they don’t. I am a benevolent here and help the elderly who make not even 900 Euros / month.
So what I say is not only from my own experience, but the experience I acquired helping retirees, French people who don't live in "16th, 17th, 14th" arrondissement. So those poor or middle class (low middle class) people live in areas where doctors don't give a "sh...". They don't make appointment and people wait in line for hours, and even when they have appointments, they have to wait their turn according to the time of their arrival.
Most of the time, the "Securite Sociale" doesn't allow extensive tests (different tests from basic ones which don't really show anything serious) to be made, at least on "regular people". I know it because doctors - acquaintances of mine - told me so and I saw what happened to me (I'll describe later).
Those low middle class people don't speak English and they are not fancy. They don’t project the “big money” fantasy that the French have about Americans. And more and more, specialists are charging above the Security Cost. That is why they have now: sector 2, and 3. that is quite new. It has started about 10 years ago I thing.
But for the Americans – who are used to pay large amount of money for doctor’s visit, and who go to a private doctor in France, of course they think it’s very cheap and even ridiculous. But you have to put yourself in the "French people" shoes. For them, when they have to pay 120 Euros to have a good doctor, it is like, for an American, paying 1,000 Euros.
And the Private insurance in America can be much cheaper, and still you are better treated – DOCTORS ARE AFRAID OF LAWSUIT SO THEY GIVE THE BEST.
In France, DOCTORS CAN KILL YOU AND THE FRENCH HAVE NO RECOURSE – THE GOVERNMENT PROTECTS THEIR ELITES, THE DOCTORS!
If you have BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD, then you are treated like kings.
I had only an HMO in 1999, 2000 and I paid only 200 dollars a month – I still have the documents. And I was treated like a queen. I did have at that time some health issue and they did tests you cannot even dream of having here unless you are rich or a big shot!
Now, in France, you have the CMU, the "ALD", and the "medical assistance" which is fine, but is it fair for French people who have worked all their lives and cannot afford the best doctors? Indeed it is true. Try to go and talk to a specialist with a CMU or ALD, today and you'll see if you can find one who won't make you pay "above the authorized amount reimbursed by the SOCIAL SECURITY".
For the French who have only 900 Euros a month, they cannot afford it, so they have to make an appointment with any doctor in hospitals and "dispensaries". They don't know who they would see because it is in the "ethic" of the French society no to tell. So they go blindly to see the doctor, perhaps a new doctor, fresh with his new degree or a retiree, anyway definitively not the best.
Now, this is not very important when you have a flue, but what if you have something more serious? What about if, because the doctors don't make enough money, they operate on you just to make extra money? Who cares since nobody in France can afford a lawyer, and even if they do, you have only one man, the Procureur de la Republique, who decides if yes or no he would allow you to sue ? By the way, most of the time, this Procureur refuses your lawsuit! And anyway, who cares since the government protects its elites, the doctors among other elites!
So now I am talking about me: I speak and write English perfectly and of course French. I have a license at the Sorbonne in literature and languages. What's wrong with me?
Because of that, I did this experience: speak in English to doctors, cashiers in stores, sales people, France telecom and "free telecom" employees. You would laugh seeing how polite they are whey I tell them I am an American. French need American money, believe me.
Now, I have a cerebral aneurysm. For years I went to many doctors telling them I have pains - I don't want to specify -, and those doctors, the cheap ones, the ones who take the carte vitale, the ones of the SECTOR I, and they said, for 10 years, it was in my head.
Last November finally I had a friend of mine, a doctor in neurology, made a prescription for an m
You have to know that a huge part of the society in France has an income of 800 to 1000 Euros / month, especially the retirees but also working people –a very large percentage of the French population. If in America you have 30000 millions of poor people - 10%, (mostly new immigrants who don’t even speak english), in France you have at least - and I am generous - 50% of people who have education, at least junior college. Plus they don’t call them :poor” if they have these “400 euros” RMI from the government. Who can leave with 400 Euros? This is hypocrisy in the highest level!
I am paying for my treatment NOT IN FRANCE, BUT IN HOLLAND AND IN AMERICA. I DON’T TRUST THE FRENCH TO DO A SURGICAL OPERATION ON MY HEAD. If they kill me or make me disabled for life, nobody can do anything and these doctors know it. They are protected by the government. In fact, with the government benediction, they use you as a guinea pig to advance governmental research. I have proofs of what I am saying.
I AM SORRY, BUT NONE OF YOU KNOW THE FRENCH SYSTEM and the French who are talking here, either they are from the elite circles, or they know only the French system and have been brainwashed about it, and don’t know America which was, in my view, very unique in the world. Not anymore with Obama who wants to bring France to America !
Anyway, almost all of Europe has about the same system – I went to Belgium – and although perhaps it’s a little better, it’s still the same - know only France or Europe – which is about the same everywhere in Northern Europe, although France is mostly southern Europe and has a Southern European mentality – not very far away from North Africa that they occupied for more than 150 years. When I think that France wants to give lessons about occupation when all they did was to occupy many countries and make wars ! Look at the communes, Napoleon, and the whole History of France ! There is nothing to be proud of !
So, in France, if you don't know it, I'll tell you: It is a very discriminatory society: it depends who your parents are, where you come from, and what is your position in the society.
This is why the Americans are so well treated. French doctors are afraid to be sued by Americans (or by the people speaking only English - but not by the French because they know that most of them won't sue because they won't have the money.
We had a very similar experience with my father who was dying of prostrate cancer he sat for 8 hours, as confirmed by his room mate, on a hard chair while his bed which had been stripped at 9.00am that morning remained unmade while nurses stood talking at the bottom of the ward when i arrived on the scene there was a full blown war going on between my sister who is a staff nurse at the same hospital my cousin who works in the care of the elderly and the nurses who were pleading that they were over worked and had been having a break while i have every admiration for nurses having been on the receiving end of their care for a very long time and nothing was to much trouble but that was over 30 years ago there are some as in all trades and professions that shouldnt be there the fact that none of the nurses at the time were fluent in english didnt help, my father with the help of my family was taken home where he died with dignity thanks to the Douglas Macmillan nurses
On a more personal note shortly before i left for sunny south west France i was sent for a blood test as there is a history of diabetese in the family this was mentioned to a member of my wifes family who is a nurse and works at a midlands hospital constantly in the news, having been told it was a fasting blood test necessary for diabetes she promptly told me it was a load of rubbish and i could eat what i wanted , questioning her reasons i was told she should know as she had been to university for nursing i ignored her advice thankfully as the nurse who took the blood test when told suggested she go back and get some more training in nursing not sitting behind a desk, my sister also agrees that since they have made nursing a degree status there are nurses with the attitude i dont empty bed pans i dont do that i have a degree, as my sister said a lot can be learned about a patient from the contents of a bed pan.
i spent 7 years studying engineering it doesnt make me Isambard Kingdom Brunel
Please tell everyone that you believe the NHS is better than French health system then read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/04/ann-clwyd-husband-died-hen
I am not saying it is typical, but unfortunately one hears too many 'stories' to discount them all. This one comes from somebody who is actually quite privileged compared to the many. Other European health system are gradually crumbling, my nurse daughter-in-law talked about a recruitment freeze in the German health system about three years ago, part of the early austerity programme. As far as I know, in Hannover where she is that is continuing. I think it easy to be critical and tear any health system apart, and I too have some bad experience here, but it needs to be the whole picture in perspective rather than snapshots. I hope the Clwyd-Roberts example is only one such instance, if not then I wonder why anybody would wish to go back to the UK for their later years?
Sounds terrible Jane, where are you located?
Jane, was your experience better or worse that you would expect from the NHS or whatever other benchmark you might use?
BTW, this is a genuine question.
With all the replies to this thread I have just re-read the original post. The 'Malpractice' argument seems to be an overriding theme I feel (or is it just one too many glasses of red?). Why does the thought of a malpractice suite occur before an initial appointment has even been made?
Just about right there, my experience this year says anyway.
Yes, it appears to be generally between $1200 to $1500, how on earth do minimum wage earners manage to afford healthcare? Or is that the whole point - they can't?
Sigh, how I wish all the French would believe in Equality and Brotherhood, like Jean-Louis! We probably wouldn't have so many discussions on SFN though ;-)
hear hear Jean-Louis
Me too, I have had excellent healthcare with my kids and am exceedingly grateful that I have so far never had to be really grateful for the system. As independants my husband and I put a lot into the system and hopefully that is helping those who are less fortunate than us.
I work very closely with Americans and the majority of them believe that France has an outstanding health system. However, they are also under the erroneous impression that it is free. In discussion with them, they do seem to pay out a fortune for health insurance - is this because I tend to work with fairly wealthy people?
Last reply was to Jean-louis btw!
Very well put and I have to say I agree and am in the 'happy to pay' brigade.
Wow, you call Fox News journalistic crap but the state-funded PBS a glowing example of journalistic integrity all while saying you aren't America Bashing...Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!!!
You will also notice that you aren't actually refuting any of the points I made regarding the differences between care in France (and most of the EU) compared to the US nor the fact that I never once bashed the French health system, in fact saying that I did not think the US system was perfect, only saying that I would personally go back to the States for treatment if I had a serious issue.
I'm happy that you are happy with the health care system here...but I think that there are obviously some holes to patch up otherwise this thread would not have been started & responded to in the first place.
I also beg you to please re-evaluate your opinion of yourself not being "anti-American" as from what I have seen with the vehemence you have put into protesting that there could be absolutely NOTHING good about anything in the US healthcare system that perhaps you *might* be just a tad "Anti-American"…and admitting this is a good first step toward further self-awareness and understanding.
My lobular breast cancer was only discovered when I was in a private hospital, although I had been twice to see GP’s twice. People now have to be referred to a specialist within two weeks of presenting with cancer symptoms. How that would have helped me I do 't know, as they were sure that I had an abscess. This was actually true, although the abscess was being caused by the tumour!
I had a half an hour conversation with a specialist nurse from the British Lung Foundation and I now feel much more prepared for my consultation with my lung specialist on Friday.I now know that the Tamoxifen I took for my breast cancer is the most likely candidate for the nodules in my lungs.
Specialist charitable advice is readily available in UK.