Perhaps this needs putting in to perspective. No system is perfect and yes the French system is excellent; I would not dispute that but there are good and bad points, some being down to the consultants/doctors themselves and areas. Michle living in Paris, I have heard several times on news programmes that the hospitals are insufficient for the population, so therefore would get more problems.
I have received excellent fast treatment but having had cancer here, there are things which I was not happy about. A ganglion sentinelle being put in without even a local anaesthetic (in UK done with one); nurses not checking my blood pressure when it was low during the night which they were meant to do; lack of after care; having to change surgeon because of the inefficiency of the first; being told by one that I needed only radiotherapy to find out that I had to have chemo.
My husband was taken to emergency at Gueret with pains in his chest, doubled over, it turned out to be a punctured lung, they tried to force him to lay flat when it was impossible with the pain. They suspected a heart attack but if it had have been he would be dead because they took more than 7 or 8 mins to bring out a stretcher (less than 50 metres). A friend went to A&E at Chateauroux and waited 4 hours to be seen: another waited 3 months for a back operation at the same hospital.
It is still lots better than the UK but my cancer care the first time round in the UK was a lot better than here.
I don't know how you've lived in France, but, maybe you should try and understand us a bit more...Let me explain..
Yes right it cost me my taxes...that's what we call solidarity....I pay also for the other people's kids to go to school for (almost) free, for people who are unemployed to be cured as much as I am....I quote what you said if you don't mind :
- 1 "My effective income tax rate in the States is less than 30%, here in France it is well over 50% and I benefit absolutely zero from that pay in." or
2- "If I lived in France for one year prior to the birth of my child I would have paid well over and above that $1600 in taxes to the government of France in just what is allocated to the Health system here!"...
SO? Do you mean you find it too expensive? Just because you don't give birth every year you should not pay your taxes to the social security system you might need one day? Don't talk to me about Libertarianism I think this ideology stinks...the saying "I don't see why I should pay taxes to pay for things I don't use....bla bla bla..." Well fine, just don't pay taxes, complain about the amount of money the state takes from you but do not come and benefit from the system which is made for the goood of the MAJORITY not the just the well off...Sorry, but working with people in need, teaching destitute kids from immigration in a state school, just because, maybe foolishly, I still believe in my country's saying written on the front of any official building...makes me think that I don't give a toss about paying taxes even if I don't have cancer, need big surgery, if by my taking my share I can help people going to the doctor's...and receive education...Get the difference between our two systems? That is not communism by the way it is just Equality and Brotherhood...We tend to see freedom as a common value to all human beings...not just the rich...Being free and slowly dying because you can't cure yourself is a hilarious thing..."I'm dying...but I'm dying free..."
Read the article I posted, very few in the US are “truly” uninsured.
Your birth did not cost you 0 euro…you or your spouse (and all of your fellow countrymen) contributed a significant amount of tax money to pay for it. My effective income tax rate in the States is less than 30%, here in France it is well over 50% and I benefit absolutely zero from that pay in. If I lived in France for one year prior to the birth of my child I would have paid well over and above that $1600 in taxes to the government of France in just what is allocated to the Health system here! I also may not have had the opportunity to choose my OB/GYN, my delivery place (a tier 1 children’s trauma specialty hospital…just in case ANYTHING went wrong), and also known that IF anything did go wrong and it was the fault of any of the physicians, nurses, etc. that they are all required to carry medical malpractice insurance and I had the right to challenge them in a court of law.
Again, I’m not saying that it is perfect, it is just that I don’t believe that the French system is perfect either…
I had to write a short reply to this because i have had excellent service, fast and effective. I have CMU for myself and my family and have been immediately referred for xrays, blood tests etc I have friends who have had fast, excellent service who were not under CMU. I have no complaints at all.
What if you don't have a job? Can't work because of serious illness, or become seriously injured because of your job?? Hummmm?? $1600? for a birth....My baby girl (she is three weeks today....cost me..... 0 euro..) hospital fees, péridurale, and doctor's charges all taken care of by the Assurance Maladie...
I to would be interested having shopped around and found them very expensive
My family has fortunately been incredibly healthy in the 20 months that we have lived in France, so I cannot say much about the care from a personal perspective. I will tell you that, as an American (whose husband is Canadian), that if ever anyone in my family required serious care, especially my 32 month old daughter, that we have MedEvac insurance and would immediately insist upon going back to the States!
I came across an interesting article recently that some of you may also enjoy, “What the world does not know about healthcare in America” http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/11/16/what-world-doesnt-know-about-health-care-in-america/?intcmp=obnetwork
A few points from the article regarding the US system versus France in particular:
In regards to cancer screening, treatment of high cholesterol and hypertension, the US has better screening rates at younger ages and higher treatment rates than France (and the rest of the EU).
For heart bypass, 0% of those in the US waited more than 3 months for treatment in contrast to all of the EU.
The US (along with Germany and Switzerland) is one of 3 countries “where less than 10% of patients waited more than two months for a specialist. Three to four times more patients waited longer than two months in Canada (41%), Norway (34%), Sweden (31%), and France (28%).”
In the US, the last 2 companies I worked for paid 100% of my health insurance (an excellent PPO whereby I could go to any specialist I chose at any time without a referral from a GP) for myself AND my family. I would pay $20 for a routine visit to a specialist and my yearly “cap” for out of pocket expenses for healthcare for my entire family was $3000. For these out of pocket expenses I was allowed to put pre-tax income into a health savings account…so for example, the birth of my child “cost” me $1600 out of this health savings account, but that was $1600 I paid ZERO income taxes on and I did not have to come up with the cash on the spot. The remainder of what we had put away in the health savings account my husband used to replace a crown/bridge that he had been told would need to be replaced “in the coming years” due to its age.
In general, I do not believe that the US system is perfect, but the technology available as well as the training of the doctors and hospitals and your freedom to choose who you wish to see and WHEN would make me select treatment there versus anywhere else in the world if I were in a serious health situation. There is a reason why heads of state and the very wealthy from all over the world, regardless of their home countries “free” medical care, come to the US for treatment when they demand the absolute BEST in care. I only hope that the path that we are currently on does not completely destroy the exceptional care that anyone is able to receive in my home country.
Hi Leslie, am in the process of trying to choose a mutuelle. Who did you choose and why? Any information gratefully received. Thanks.
AMASNDA STONE
Could you tell me which mutuelle you're with at 35 euros pcm.?
I am 64 years old and my wife 65 we are paying 1680 euros per annum!
Prescriptions, yes they are a bit to generous here. When I get my bits and pieces at the pharmacy I am surprised that some people are alive given the lethal cocktails they receive. I have also noticed how much stuff is in bathroom cabinets in friends' houses, people I would expect to know better at that. Less prescribed and a better system for returning unwanted medication might help. I know every pharmacy takes them, but where are the posters at medical practices advocating doing it? That kind of thing helps. All of our surpluses, when we have any, are incinerated, I dislike pharmaceutical products so much I would rather see them out of the world once and for all. I wish a few more people would do the same. The wrappers/dispensers can usually be recycled too.
re too much medication: 'You do not have to follow all the prescription': I do agree (as I skip 75% of the drugs my French GP prescribes (otherwise I would be dead by now)) but it sounds a bit weird, doesn't it? Shouldn't I be able to trust the doctor I visit and be able to follow his advice? He has studied for this after all. I'm not a doctor, otherwise I could just visit Wikipedia and get my problem solved (and not waste 4 hours of my precious time). Prescribing too much medicines to critical minds (like me) is something, but sounds very dangerous for people who follow the advice of the doctor they trust.
But then, this is my opinion as a Dutch person (where GPs prescribe drugs in only 50% of the 'consultations' versus 95% in France (I have read this in a French paper)). I know this is a cultural thing and French people surely think otherwise, so don't want to discuss it any further, but it is a very important thing you should know when you come from another country such as Holland.
@ Michle:
the qualification "best healthcare" is mostly based on the results of the treatments. So before experiencing the end result you probably need to behave less like an American in Paris and go a bit more with the flow; "when in Rome, do as Romans do" ;-)
Luckily I haven’t had a great deal of experience of hospitals here in France other than two shall we say minor incidents years ago I brought parties of kids over here one incident involved a lad slicing a chunk out of his elbow hospital treatment first class, second lad his foot again first class treatment, some time back I lost the tip of my finger, dog bite, it was repaired here no waiting about straight in to see the doctor, on returning to the uk I went to my GP who commented on how well the job had been done but had to refer me to the hospital for ongoing treatment and removal of the stitches within a week my finger was turning black with infection eventually I gave up on the hospital and went to my local clinic they used a silver dressing commenting that the hospital should have used a similar but wouldn’t because of cost, my wife has had a mamagram and smear here in France with no complaints at all, turn back the clock a few years my daughter had a suspected broken arm, up to the Accident and Emergency at my local hospital stand in a queue at the reception explain what had happened to the receptionist told to sit on the blue chairs around the corner one hour later called in to see the nurse who did a brief examination then told us to sit on the grey chairs across the other side of the room wait again called in to the doctor told to go to x-ray sit and wait again back to the doctor who then confirmed what I knew 4 hours earlier the arm was broken we eventually came out of the hospital at 2.30 am after arriving at the hospital at 800pm over 4 hours of that time sat on blue or grey chairs, my sister is a staff nurse and when I asked her she replied that was how the management had decided how it should be done my own GP had made thinly veiled comments about top heavy management in the NHS
On a different theme years ago I was working in southern England and stopping in the hotel was an American couple she was pregnant and during the conversation it transpired she had come over to the uk to have her baby I was somewhat surprised at this expecting that the US would have far better facilities than the UK her reply was do you know how much it will cost to have a baby in America its free here
I suspect that more than half of American citizens, your compatriots, couldn’t afford anything but the most basic healthcare or, in a significant number of cases, no healthcare at all, despite the presence of the latest super dooper equipment in their country. In the US premature mortality is disproportionately higher in lower income groups because health care seems to be inextricably linked to personal income. I would refer you to the following article which states that: “Premature death rate in US is almost DOUBLE that in France, study shows” http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6352 (British Medical Journal).
At least here in France this is not the case. If you have a system which offers universal treatment based on what the country can afford as opposed to what the individual can afford, it stands to reason that there will be financial constraints and some limitations. But at least the whole population has a chance.
Perhaps we should be counting our blessings.
My child has just yesterday returned from a French state hospital and we have found none of this. In my experience, my doctor shows no interest in any mutuelle we may or may not have and sends us for scans, xrays, physio, you name it! The same can be said of treatment for me too. I will go some way to agreeing with the process being impersonal - but having once worked in a hospital many years ago I can understand this - one has a job to do and one gets on with it. When I go for treatment I expect to be treated with respect and I treat health professionals with equal respect, I do not expect to be treated like a queen.
To be in a Mutuelle it costs about 35 euros a month.
I had similar complaints about the hospital regime (bedside manner) about the clinique (semi private) in which I had my child 8 years ago. The health service seems to have moved on, certainly in the public sector - you are probably unlucky.
Oooo Jean-Louis, strong words, but I cannot actually disagree. Every health system has flaws anyway and Jane got the worst of it. I have had excellent treatment generally except that one surgeon appears to have carried out a wrong procedure and his colleagues are covering for him, but that does not condemn the entire system. As for the last paragraph, I could not agree more.
Well, it seems to me that you have taken on the French way of life…take a bad example, and make a generality of it…It’s not because a train is late that ALL are…it’s not because you have had A bad experience that all the system is faulty…Before complaining about the delays let’s try and analyze WHY is it so…(lack of staff, cuts in public funding, long hours of work in a row, the unwillingness of the different governments to put money into it, drastic cuts to reimburse the supposed debt…but hey, this is another story). The french hospitals have complained about this for years…Nevertheless, I am definitely confident in the fact that France has one of the best health service…So good that many of us think it is FREE which is not the case, we pay every month for it…I am still persuaded that we are VERY VERY lucky to have such a system…and what is striking about it is that Michelle spoke about socialism as a bad thing in another thread…Socialism and sharing are fundamental in a society that has the will to stand on its two feet, especially that the sécurité sociale was created in 1945 in a country ruined by war…and this is not to be forgotten. If we forget the idea of National solidarity then let’s forget all our acquired rights such as “congés payés, maternity leave, sick leave etc etc…”
When it comes to too much medicine, be smart, you do not have to follow all the prescription…we have a brain and are not the slaves of the doctors and medical staff…
There is a shortage of GP’s in Saone et Loire, as throughout many rural areas in France.
I find it very difficult to understand how a GP can be allowed to practice on his own, and without a computer or back up staff. Our old GP made all his appointments himself during your consultation, yet you had to sit in a tiny waiting room with the door closed sharing everyone else’s germs to protect people’s confidentiality. Bizarre!
Oh dear, I really feel for you. Obviously, you have had some very bad experiences. As for me, our hospital experiences are ok, no complaints. The only negative thing is the country GP we have. He takes so much time per patient that you have to wait for hours in the waiting room: 3-4h if you haven't made an appointment, 2h when you have...just to get stuffed with drugs once you get in! (I manage to reduce the amount of drugs by half when I'm there (he always admits afterwards that those were not necessary anyway) and never take one quarter of the prescribed ones as you get really scary of the mountains of drugs you return with from the pharmacist. I could actually have killed myself with all the drugs he prescribed and this, unfortunately, is not a joke.
We have had to change our GP because he couldn’t be bothered to open his post which contained my petscan result. He also had no computer in this day and age. We now go to an English speaking doctor in a wonderful new health centre in Cluny, who is very helpful.
I was misdiagnosed with lung cancer after my scans and the way you are told here that you have cancer is outrageous. The radiologist pointed out the nodules in my lungs and gave me an open letter saying that I had secondaries.
The secretarial side of the local hospital is dreadful. When I went into hospital for a needle. Biopsy of my lung, I was not told that I had to stay in for 24 hours and I was given the information relating to a liver biopsy. When I queried it, I was told “c’est normal”. No explanation that the same procedure applied to both. I understand that this is now to change.
I went for a third scan yesterday and was told to be there one and a half hours before my scan, but the department was shut!
Whilst waiting in the long line with other people who had turned up I found that I was not the only one where the secretariat had made mistakes.
During my stay in hospital, the nursing staff were wonderful and I have no complaints about them at all.
However, when I came to be discharged, I was told to wait for my consultant, who never came and neither did the other doctor the nurse asked. I was just told to leave.
For my last scan the consultant asked her office to make the appointment for me, but I heard nothing and was then told to ring again later. This I did and they said that I had to make the appointment myself. Just lazy! When I turned up for my scan I had to tell them why I was there.
This paints a picture that is very varied and I am sorry you have had such a bad experience.
I have been misdiagnosed with cancer twice. In UK they told me I was clear when I wasn’t and I. France that I had it when I hadn’t. My opinion of doctors can only be coloured by my experience.