It will depend on the religion.
Militant Christianity will give you Wilberforce and Mother Theresa.
Politicised Christianity will give you the Crusades, the Troubles, Trump etc.
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Unfortunately I think you are - you have to decide whether it is ok to kill thousands of people - whether this is by Israel or anyone else. As someone said earlier, an eye for an eye, except here it is thousands of eyes for an eye… Is this ok?
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While I know what you mean, I don’t think that people outside the church see the distinction in those terms. with militant usually meaning military rather than active. Which is the context I used here. I’d argue that Wilberforce was also highly political in his expression of faith too, though it was his faith driving the politics rather than t’other way round as we commonly see.
What a compliment: that Wilberforce’s faith drove his politics !
I may be making assumptions, and realise that I don’t know an enormous amount about him. Sometimes historical characters are talked about as people think they should have been, rather than as they were.
I have only responsibility for my actions. I despair at human cruelty. It will never stop. I cannot pick and choose who is right or wrong. Amongst all the lies, propaganda, virtue signalling sycophants,media controlled information , etc.
Killing civilians en masse is fairly unambiguous, even if surrounded by propaganda.
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A ridicules and quite insulting question John. Of course I don’t support Hamas, nor ever have.
Israel, on the other hand, has enthusiastically done so.
The Times of Israel, 8 October 2023.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
Summary
For years, Netanyahu’s policy of strengthening Hamas in Gaza, while weakening the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, aimed to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. This approach, which included indirect negotiations, financial support, and work permits for Gazans, allowed Hamas to grow stronger. However, this strategy backfired, culminating in a devastating attack on Israel by Hamas, resulting in significant loss of life and abductions.
The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.
Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented.
The same messaging was repeated by right-wing commentators, who may have received briefings on the matter or talked to Likud higher-ups and understood the message.
Bolstered by this policy, Hamas grew stronger and stronger until Saturday, Israel’s “Pearl Harbor,” the bloodiest day in its history — when terrorists crossed the border, slaughtered hundreds of Israelis and kidnapped an unknown number under the cover of thousands of rockets fired at towns throughout the country’s south and center.
The country has known attacks and wars, but never on such a scale in a single morning.
One thing is clear: The concept of indirectly strengthening Hamas — while tolerating sporadic attacks and minor military operations every few years — went up in smoke Saturday.
Just a few days ago, Assaf Pozilov, a reporter for the Kan public broadcaster, tweeted the following: “The Islamic Jihad organization has started a noisy exercise very close to the border, in which they practiced launching missiles, breaking into Israel and kidnapping soldiers.”
The difference between Islamic Jihad and Hamas doesn’t matter much at this point. As far as the State of Israel is concerned, the territory is under the control of Hamas, and it is responsible for all the training and activities there.
Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.
The terror inflicted on the civilian population in Israel is so enormous that the wounds from it will not heal for years, a challenge compounded by the dozens abducted into Gaza.
Judging by the way Netanyahu has managed Gaza in the last 13 years, it is not certain that there will be a clear policy going forward.
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can’t understand why you are not outraged?
Of course most people are outraged, but there’s little point discussing it of SF. We can all be outraged on paper. I chose action, which I’m not discussing here.
Good.
@john_nolloth In one of your posts you’ve stated that “Islam is the toxic religion”, does this statement not apply to all religions to some degree including Judaism?
Yes, I am an atheist.
Then I’m surprised by your strong feelings about one particular religion.
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Getting back to Israel and @Roger_Lapin 's original question, I wonder if there might be a link between those who fund Labour (in particular, Quadrature: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/keir-starmer-labour-party-quadrature-donation-arms-companies-israel-war-gaza/) and the government’s involvement in what Israel is doing.
Of course, it could be a coincidence.
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Starmer’s wife is Jewish, so his personal situation is more complicated than for most of us.
I don’t know what people’s views are on Owen Jones, I have mixed views myself. ButI found this video interesting. Especially the second half in light of the intimidation the ICC is the vicim of. Interesting too that they are now conducting their war crimes investigations in secret. So hearing nothing, doesn’t mean nothing is going on.
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If it is more complicated, which I don’t doubt, it’s disturbing that UK policy is affected by who the Prime Minister shares the bathroom with.
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I thought that was young Ukrainian men of negotiable virtue?
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Christian fundamentalists in the USA are another dangerous group.
Everyone’s favourite patriot, Tommy Ten Names, has now jumped on the topic of religion in the UK too. Which puts the Church of England in a delicate position.
“I never thought I had to choose before, but now I’m feeling like Christianity could be replaced, so that’s why I feel the church needs support,” the 36-year-old from Bradford says.
Gareth talks about the church in England being under “threat”, as he sees it, mainly from Islam. He says his concern is about the extreme elements of Islam, not the religion as a whole.
He also makes claims about all the Christmas markets in London being renamed “festive markets” and about some areas of the country becoming “fully Muslim”, as other reasons for feeling a need to engage more with Christianity.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not the person interviewed in the article above!