Yes, we are far from idle, and out in the sticks, we are also far from rich!!! I am self employed and do prefer it. I often find I am battling for peanuts - wrecked houses at low prices with hordes of problems. Oh for the early days when people came over with cash, saw a property for a holiday home, signed and bought within six weeks. I am currently selling land which can easily take six months between Compromis and Acte.
Janet, you are so right about the advance commission, much better to be a self employed agent commercial, you know exactly where you stand. I too know an ex employee of an agency who had the same problem when she left as well. This has been a fabulous thread and I hope those who think we are the idle rich, have now changed their minds.
I know! WE are currently in a flush of ‘email’ enquiries from ‘interested clients’ - all with the same strange type of email address. Suspect other local agency. We are going down 100% confiance route soon so that will put an end to these shenanigins
a noble gesture Catharine - just hope people dont abuse it!
Hello I do French to English translations, if anyone is interested.
Jennie - I am absolutely in agreement with you. Also, a thing which very many clients are unaware of, most French estate agent employees work on ‘advance commission’ that is to say that all commission which is attributed to them is deducted from the minimum wage paid to them every month - yes they all work for minimum wage - and to earn more than this, they have to sell more than the equivalent of the SMIC. Currently, all of the agents I work with are ‘en retard’. I even know of one agent, when she left her agency, she had to repay the agency the money she was ‘en retard’ with.
Well in that case - i have a two bedroom two bathroom renovated stone house in the southern Luberon for rent…6 months, one year, longer. Located in the small village of Peypin D’Aigues with a terrace and great view of the Luberon. Of course if anyone is interested, please let me know and i can send photos, descriptions, etc.
A very good point Peta, one often overlooked. Also your point on advertising as well. It is not funny in anyway when you pay out these huge sums only to find a competitor or worse still someone has seen your advert, found the property and then bought directly from the owner without you knowledge. I am an agent commercial here and very often get e-mails from the smart alecs asking all manner of questions just to find out where certain properties are located in order to do private deals. I have many years experience so I’m able to sort these out very quickly.
This is one of the many reasons, agencies here have to charge what many people see to be very high fees and why many agencies go out of business as well.
Feel free to post properties on SFN - we tried charging and people just (generally) refused to pay - I know more than a few places have sold due to SFN - just like the Bring Buy and sell group - so my current feeling is “on your own conscience be it” - hopefully any nice SFN members that make a sale through the site will bung us something - and from your perspective - got to be worth a try - no?
So agents - post away!!
I think the fact that most agents in France operate on a non-exclusive basis has also been overlooked. I’ve been in France for 10 years and have worked selling equestrian properties for much of that time. Believe me, advertising is not cheap. A page colour ad in a reasonable equestrian magazine will typically cost between 1500-3500€, stands at trade fairs can run into the thousands, I spend significant amounts each month making sure our properties are displayed on all the traditional French agency sites and rank highly in the search engines in multiple languages and run up ridiculous amounts of mileage every year. Despite our best efforts there is absolutely no guarantee that after all that expense the owner or another agent will not sell the property first. I reckon around 60% of the agency fees go back to the Government in some way shape or form and agents will frequently work interagency splitting this in half again.
As a much maligned immobilier, I would like to write in our defense! In the first place, French people don’t clean up or redecorate when they put their houses on the market. We are obliged to take photos ‘around’ the mess. The local French where I live think that the English have marvellous style and panache - most certainly more than the locals do. As an estate agent, if I see another crochet bedspread, scary large Spanish doll, wallpaper that extends up the walls, over the ceiling and sometimes partially over the doors, I will scream.
I also heartily detest soulless boxes, brightly coloured ‘voile’, wooden wall panneling, old oak kitchens, terrible renovations and houses where people want you to sell but have had the electric turned off to save money. I have had bats stick in my hair, clients fall through rotten floors (after being told not to walk on them), stepped on vipers and had to shower myself down to get rid of fleas when I get home - home after a 12 hour day of playing taxi and tourist guide to people who are actually on holiday and ‘toying’ with idea of buying.
In my daily round, I have to deal with divorcing people who hate one another, being bitten by fleas from infested houses (and animals), Parisians who have homes down in SW who cant accept that there is quite a price differential, indecisive buyers, nervous banks, ever changing regulations and ‘normes’, termity floors which threaten to bust under my feet, snake infested gardens, huge dogs slavering over me, clients who want to live near to a town but without a busy road nearby, clients who want no neighbours but be able to walk into the centre of a village, people who have seen that you can buy a house for £100 000 with three gites and a hectare (YOU CANT!!!) because it was on the telly.
Estate agents in the UK charge you 1 - 1.5% yes - because they sit on their backsides in the office. All of our visits are accompanied. We spent 50% of our time prospecting for property and then bringing it in at a decent price. We sort out loans. We get in quotes. We organise the diagnostics and find out how much it costs to put that fosse septique right. We pound the streets giving out advertising and drumming up business. We do open houses and open evenings. We do ‘cremailleres’ for those who buy. We are there from 8 - 8 (well I am) Monday to Friday and Saturday mornings. We do the stuff so you dont have to and we keep you informed of where we are.
I have sold in the UK and I can tell you, what I was given was not service. I could go on but I have lots of blog writing, article writing and website updating to do.
Well, it is a moot point. Legally, the seller has a contract (mandat simple) to pay the agency. Remember the buyer has no legal obligation whatsoever, since he did not sign anything. A good notaire will help the seller save some money by taking the agency fees out of the equation (bill them separately). This way, they are not part of the price of the house, so the buyer does not have to pay taxes over this part, Agent and seller don’t care any which way.
Legalese aside, what it boils down to, is that seller and buyer both pay the fees. The 6% are diminishing their room for negotiation. If they could sell without an agency, they could just split the 6% and each pay 3% less. On a 500.000 euro house, they will each save 15.000 euros.
Money the seller will receive, and money the buyer will not have to pay.
Sorry, but I think I will contradict you.
In the case of 14 houses I sold, the buyer pays the notaire, not the seller.
The notaire then asks who is paying the fees, in our case it was always the seller who paid.
We presented our invoice at the acte de vente.
The notaire deducted this amount from the sale price, and charged his 7% on the price without fees for the buyer., the balance was paid to the seller.
So the buyer pays the notaire, and the buyer pays the agency NOT the seller ( according to the way we had set up the fees)
The reason the buyer pays the fees and not the seller is I believe, after working as an estate agent here for two years until 2009 is as follows:
Notaires fees.
If you sell your house for 100 000 euos and you pay 5% fees, you thus sell the house for 105 000 euros, and the notaires fee ( paid by the buyer) is 7% of 105 000, ie 7350
if the buyer pays the fees, the house price is 100 000, plus 5% fees, but the notaires fee is 7% of 100 000, so 350 euros less.
Obviously bigger prices=bigger savings, but this is the general principle.
40% of my invoiced fees went in social charges ( thats before I paid tax), I worked 6 days most weeks, up till 10.00 pm to contact UK clients)
I worked out I needed 100 email enquiries to get 4 people to come and visit, and I would sell to one in 4 visits.
Since 2008 there has not been the volume of UK enquirers to make it worthwhile starting up again.
I haven’t bought off a brit here but I have bought from a french family and I had the dechetterie experience with the french that you had with the brits, so yes, every case is different!
Unfortunately it also happens that agencies will bill unsuspecting buyers even though they are already paid by the seller. I know of a Dutchman who paid an invoice for another 5% after the deed had been signed. N’importe quoi!
I thought I would draw the Law card on the agency fees and hopefully settle differing views. I apologise I advance for the tediousness of it all.
The Loi Hoguet of 2nd January 1970 which is the French Act under which all French estate agents must comply with, provides that the agency agreement (mandat) must include “the conditions of determination of the remuneration, along with the indication of the party who will be liable for it” (art. 6).
Legally (because the Law says nothing), either the vendor or the buyer can be liable for the commission. In consequence, “the estate agent, who had lawfully been instructed by the vendor, cannot claim any commission or remuneration to the buyer” (extract from Court order of 26th May 1993 confirmed many times since).
This principle stands even if the compromis or the following deed of sale provide expressly, but in contradiction with the agency agreement, that the remuneration will be paid by the buyer (Court order of 21st February 2006, which includes the deciding principle at the beginning of the decision rather than the usual end of it which shows that the Court wished to make a strong statement).
The practice is often and unfortunately very different from the legal requirements.
So is it the buyer or the vendor? Check the agency agreement …
I hope this helps.
100% with you Gregor everyone has been so mature and open until now…
@Anna whoever whatever… In a controlled effort to remain polite I think it’s best that I don’t even bother replying to your comments…
and thanks Finn for more constructive comments as ever, even if we approach the matter from different points of view atleast we can have a healthy chat about it 
Compiling a tax return anywhere is a responsible job and the person undertaking such a task must do so in a very correct manner, Not something I would contemplate doing for 99€ expecially if complex in anyway. My own returns are fairly complex and as I am in business on my own account and TVA registered, I prefer to pay a comptable to handle my affairs each year, it is 1,000€ well spent and I’m sure I save at least this amount using his expertise.
It might only take some people 5 mins to fill in if they do not work or just have a pension but even so may not have the knowledge of the French system to claim all they are entitled to.
Translators and tax advisers are not swindlers, just knowledgable people doing a much needed job and providing a service.