It's Six o'clock - switch off your phones

General Discussion
61

Well, the discussion is moving on isn't it? Apart from not having a dining table between us, this is what I most like about SFN. We can agree to disagree - piss each other off on occasion, but still stay in touch. Now dare I say it? This does appear to be one of the more appealing aspects of the Poms generally.

Steve I feel is correct in saying it is useful to have some background on each other to 'know where we are coming from', and I have found it particularly noteworthy that thus far at least, I haven't noted one 'upper-class' Brit. on the site. By choice? Or do they no longer exist?

I left the UK is 1968 and wandered the planet until very recently - well, OK until about ten years ago, but I still DO work with an Australian publisher as a part-owner (earning zilch so far as well, but that's another story!) I was shocked/surpprised to find myself working out the other day that since 1955 I have had exactly the same number of addresses as the years I have been married to No3 SWMBO i.e. 37 ( read 'thirty-seven') which seems excessive under any circs, even when it has involved 12 countries.

The net effect of this has been a certain amount of 'cherry-picking' in regard to attitudes, values and tastes and an extraordinary disappearance of Nationalism in my life. Although born in the UK and still holding a UK Passport, I would say my most long-standing values were developed in Australia which was my base for 20 years although I didn't live there full-time, even as a Resident. Another possibly less attractive thing has been the often surprising reinforcement of prejudices I have had.

In Marketing we used to call it 'The Country of Origin Effect' eg Germany=High Quality Engineering, France=Fine Wines and Food, Italy = High Fashion as positive ones. Incredibly I used to ask students as to what they saw as COOE in perceptions - and as you all know Perceptions are invariably Truths to those who hold them! French students used to say their perceptions of the Brits were, in order 1) Sense of Humour 2) Courtesy 3) Pubs and 'pub-grub' 4) Bowler hats and umbrellas - I kid you not? 5) London red busses and telephone boxes. Note a big gap there? Not one student ever looked to Britain as an industrial or even creative country, and I include my English students in this.

I am not one to offer this as definitive research, but Perceptions are extraordinarily important, which brings me back to how 'knowing something about ourselves' can change, augment or even reinforce what people see or read on SFN, lets see more of it.

Vic, sorry I had to come back to this No, you cannot be considered as Methusaleh - I rather think I have got that role.

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He is a right leaning Blairite Norman. Those people seem to be able to get away with 'murder' (no allusion to Iraq intended) and have immense popular support although nobody will ever admit supporting them. I think he is what is known in colloquial English as a 'plonker' given the gaffes he has made so far. But there we go. he is a young, energetic and popular politician. Hollande is not even liked or wanted by his own party. Valls looks like a done deal for replacing him suddenly so Hollande put him in the make or break seat. If he makes, then next election we should not be surprised to see who is the PS candidate for the presidency. He might even win.

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Peter, I rather suspect that Hollande is a degree craftier than we thought. Valls is the obvious replacement for him, so why not hand him the 'poisoned chalice' of Prime Ministership? The role here is largely being the man who gets the President's will done, with very little room for independent action - count how many PM's France has had when compared to other countries.

I suspect that it will be a rapid fall in popularity for Valls in the next few months when his inability to change anything becomes apparent. Another potential threat gone? Mind you, I wasn't all together encouraged by his opening stanza of 'to expand and augment the policies of the President and his predecessor. Doesn't sound like too much change being offered there.'

As ever, it will be interesting to see how he handles it.

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Carol! Food banks, people being struck off JSA, ATOS particularly having people taken off because they no longer classify them as disabled (despite wheelchairs, missing limbs....), people choosing heating or food during the winter, homelessness including street living people, suicides and domestic violence increased recently, obesity and lack of exercise causing heart failure at steadily increasing younger ages, the divide between rich and poor so extreme that 3% have more than the majority of the rest put together and the divide is getting worse, education and health services in a mess and....

To be fair, Newbury is not the depressed north east (or other parts equally in it). Where I lived for the biggest part of my life likewise. There is the word of an unpopular chancellor and a few bankers, economists or others who support government policy. So yes Carol, Newbury or Cambridge may be thriving but the picture is superficial. You know that too I suspect.

However, the real point is that France is no better off. A similar list without food banks would sum it up. The 'invisible' poverty of small farmers going broke and deserting their land is hardly ever reported, urban poverty is 'contained' in banlieues except for large areas of cities where street living homeless are apparent (people only say they are drunks, most are not nor could they afford to drink anyway) and all the rest of it.

There is, in reality, a hair's breadth between the differences and it is almost impossible to say which is worse than the other. Only people living with their eyes 'closed' cannot see what life is really like.

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Doris I spend most of the year in England, South East England, and couldnt disagree more with your comment about 'game over'. My little bit of England is a thriving market town an hours train journey from London. We have had a home there for over 30 years originally coming from London.

Newbury has been through lots of different stages, but at the moment is vibrant, lively, businesses are doing great, we have a whole new shopping area that was finished last year. We sold our flat there recently and made a reasonable profit in less than 3 years. When I went back last time I picked up a job the day after I arrived, and a nice job at that.

My town has lots of restaurants, every supermarket you could want, we have two markets a week and a monthly farmers market that is double the size it was 10 years ago. We have had one business close in the last 12 months, (a small Mexican restaurant that had insufficient covers to make a profit) but most businesses are doing very well. Crime is down locally. There are downsides, such as reductions in council spending and fewer buses. But on the positive side, I had a hip replacement last year and walked out of the hospital next morning, feeling great, having waited 6 months for the surgery. My mother broke her hip last month, had a new hip next day at her local hospital and has had daily visits from the district nurse, physio and OTs for the last 3 weeks.

I would say that its far from game over. Things in the UK are very positive, no longer in recession and definitely on the up.

66

Like many professionals I have worked 7 days a week perhaps most of the time. Before me my builder father being one of the owners of a small company had to as well. My mother worked in a job 5 days a week then did all the washing and so on on the other two, I believe that is work as well. Ultimately many people have worked 7 days a week since forever but it is better to be paid for it.

Several brico companies and certainly Carrefour appear to be campaigning for 7 day opening at up to 24 hours a day at big stores. It will come soon, inevitably.

67

Hope you don't mind me butting in but I've been following the discussion and I can't help noticing Steve that you came to France because your employers gave you the chance to relocate here.

Could I ask - would you have come to France if your employers hadn't offered that opportunity?

68

So you post here because? Steve, I defend to the death your right to say what you think but for the life of me I can't see why you are bothering. When are you going to realise you are a lone voice crying in the wilderness? I'm beginning to think this is some kind of weird wind up but if it's not, surely you could find a French forum where you could possibly find some like minded folk to rail against " Creeping Anglo Saxonism." 'cos you sure as hell ain't gonna find many here! Why can't get on with someone who has "too many deep differences in philosophy and values."? It doesn't make them bad people merely someone who holds differing views. I just don't get your reasons for being here but what do I care? Best of luck in your search for a French Utopia, I'm out of here.

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The discussion is the same that was had in the UK. There was a lot of fuss about supermarket workers being forced to work on Sunday, well, everyone in the services has to work Sundays. If you are a train or bus driver you do too...and taxi drivers...and restaurant workers...airport staff...ferry staff...so really, its only office staff and shop staff who benefit from Sundays off...and already most supermarkets open on Sunday morning.

Doesnt matter how much people try and stop Sunday working, it will happen. Frankly, if I am working as a nurse and I accept that when I am changing a patients bed or doing a dressing that its a job that needs doing and I will get off 20 minutes late...it really irritates me to be at the sharp end of a supermarket worker getting up and walking away because their shift has finished when I am in her queue.....or the call centre worker who wont take my call because they are due off in 10 minutes, they wouldnt like it if I did that to them when they are in my hospital. We are all workers.

70

Exactly Mark. We live here, end of story. I am older than you Steve. I also have young children, and a younger OH of course, who is Italian speaking first language but French as her education language and that was the one we used together first, occasionally Spanish. That was in England. However, I read a wide range of newspapers, roughly a dozen a day (selectively, not cover to cover) in several languages. Objectively, the UK press is the most comprehensive in range if one reads the Grauniad, Torygraph, Times and Indy. Do what you want with French, Italian, Spanish, German language papers plus the US press and we never get that range. It does not make me want to live in the UK, but to utilise things it offers that are valuable compared to others. France is, in terms of media, terribly parochial. That is fine if you want to cut yourself off from the rest of the world.

Guy Fawkes night is out anyway. Fireworks are banned without a licence and proper supervision at an event. Never done it anyway. Somebody might have foisted it on the Scots but my parents never did that. Incidentally, la vielle alliance is known, remembered and respected here. Being a Scot is special, like the good single malts, for many French folk. I can always raise a laugh at a supermarket when my debit card gets stuck in my wallet by saying we Scots cannot part with money easily... We know the old joke isn't true but it gets a respectful laugh every time. Whatever we are, we are always foreigners, no matter how ell we integrate so why push trying to be French.

Then I remember only days ago who said he doesn't do all the bisoux. That is so unFrench, very distant and what some people consider rather 'Anglais'. As for customs, one is born into them but it is hard to learn them in late adulthood. I am an anthropologist so very aware of that but accept it with good grace.

Different words Steve but same meaning as Mark. France is not the France of books. It is changing, albeit slowly, and absorbing American culture more than any 'british' values. As Mark says, ....walk on hot coals first...

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We are all different, and France has been the place for many people's rebirth (what is the saying about the bloke who leaves Dover as a bus driver and then leaves the ferry in Calais as a builder?) Some people come to France to re-invent themselves, some come for an adventure, some just want to see what life is like elsewhere.

I do know that most nationalities do not move to a new country and change their way of living entirely. Look around at all the different groups of Asians (whether Chinese, Indian, Pakistani) Thai's, Arabs, Africans, Europeans....they dont move to a new country and stop eating their national foodstuffs. If you visit Kensington, which has been renamed 'Little France' you will find French food shops on every corner that the local French expats use to the exclusion of most other shops.

It doesnt stop at foods either, clothing, fashions, haircuts; TV that we watch, because we move to France do we stop enjoying UK humour and stop watching comedies or good films? If you like the occasional pint at the pub do you suddenly stop drinking pints and move over to wine instead?

In many ways I find it quite funny the way that Brits are often so desperate to adopt and adapt to the ways of the country they move to, you wont find the French, Italians, Germans, Dutch, Australians, Americans etc doing that. They remain firmly proud of their nationality, but usually wish to keep their individuality.

In the UK our neighbours are an Eastern European family. The interior of their house is furnished very differently to ours; they choose to eat food from 'home'. Visiting them is great, they are different and we discuss our differences. I would think it very strange if they were trying to be English.

72

It's no hardship for french workers to earn double their salary on a sunday if they are happy to accept the opportunity. Mr Valls is now up to 62% in the popularity ratings so he must be doing something right ? Mr Hollande has plunged even further down to an all time low of 18% .

73

"Now to me coming to a foreign country not on a mere holiday but to live and work means absorbing its culture, history customs, food and drink learning its language, which I am slowly but surely doing. So I see no point personally in continuing with eating UK food, reading British Newspapers, celebrating the likes of Guy Fawkes night etc. If others want to do so, fair play to them but please do not load this onto me or for that matter the French."

Steve, what do you think most of US have been doing for the past years, trying to turn France into Little Britain? I think most of us on this forum would rather walk on hot coals first! We are just not so extremist.

74

I'm here because I prefer the way things are here, like Steve, but after 14 years the honeymoon is over but I am still in love!

I choose my friends based on whether I like them, not by their nationality.

There are bits of the UK I like & I am not going to deny myself those things just because I no longer live there. Does Steve watch UK TV, I wonder? Are all his consumables made in France? If he is so in love with France why rely on other ex-pats for advice? Is he all take & no give?

In my village in the summer there is an evening set aside for a "dejeuner des voisins".The mairie sets out tables in the square & everyone in the village brings food to share with their neighbours. There are 6 Brits in the village & we are invited. I bought along some Heinz baked beans & some HP sauce, both of which I have in abundance, courtesy of a friend who buys wholesale. The local old farmers either refused the sauce or agreed to a small bit to be polite. As I went down the other side of the long table those who accepted a small taster of HP asked for more, & their neighbours who had refused suddenly wanted a taste! I put a few bottles on the tables which soon got used & I was thanked by most of my French neughbours for providing it. Now THATS what living here is all about!

This morning I had a cooked breakfast. Lincolnshire sausages & bacon, purchased freshly made from a local farm, eggs from a friend who has chickens, mushrooms from Lidl & baked beans from my UK friend. A french breakfast is usually croissants & a bowl of coffee, alright sometimes but not all the time. Steve, keep the French breakfast!

I love wine from all over the world but sometimes a pint of real ale just hits the spot. Guess what? Intermarche sells a range specially bottled for export so I can get a pint of Shepherd Neame Spitfire Bitter any time I like.

I'm in a club - L.A.T., Les Amis des Tracteurs - of which there are now 5 British members & we are most welcome. They even produce an English language newsletter for us, although this was not asked for, they just like to show us how welcome we are!

I do avoid a local bar where a group of dodgy Brit cowboy builders hang out. Their swearing is out of order for a start & as the drinks flow their behaviour makes me cringe!

Steve, are you never going to eat anything other than French cuisine ever again? Even the French eat foriegn food!

http://nord-dordogne.forumactif.com/t966-le-dejeuner-des-voisins-du-29-juin-2013

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:-) :-) Well spotted that man!

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Baby out with the bathwater springs to mind. The past cannot be expunged.

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You're on this one...

78

I agree Mark, I’ve lived longer in France now than I’ve lived in the uk. I wouldn’t go back to live, there is nothing I really miss from the uk and it’s a nice treat to be able to have a British meal if ever I take my French family for a holiday to the Uk.
Both cultures have things to offer. Cutting out all Brits and British means neglecting a whole load if experiences.

79

Sounds like a good UK/French compromise where you live, Steve. Out in Rural France very little is within "walking distance", public transport, if any, means sharing the school bus twice a day or booking a taxi weeks in advance. Luckily, even banned drivers can drive to & from their nearest town on market days otherwise they would starve! Some supermarkets now open on Sunday mornings in the larger villages but other shops do not stay open beyond 7.15 - you have to go to the big towns for that!

I'm sure that many shop workers would welcome the opportunity to earn more money out here in the sticks to suppliment a meagre income. Jobs here are hard to find! Nice that you are prepared to crush the opportunity of French youngsters to stay in their local communities as at the moment they have to migrate to the cities in search of jobs.

My bugbear is that the Government wants to micro manage every aspect of peoples lives. If an employee considers his day finished on completion of his paid hours then fine. He can make up his own mind if he wants to do more but it should not be forced on him - either way!

I have friends here, both english & french. I do not cut myself off from other brits just because they are brits as a few do. That would be childish & pointless - I never shunned foreign friends in the UK! Alongside British cuisine I also ate Italian, French, Chinese & Indian food none of which is of British origin. Here I eat Italian, French, Chinese & Indian food - & British! If you moved to Spain would you never eat French food again?

Why pretend that France is a faultless Utopia? I love it here but it is not perfect, but in my mind it is, overall, preferable to living in the UK. It has faults, as we all do, & here we debate them. It's fun!

80

Yeah! And "the working class can kiss my arse, 'cos I've a foreman's job at last" Don't knock it till you've tried it Steve ;-)