Language snobs, do you know any?

General Discussion
61

I'm afraid to say that my "snobbery" works the other way...I flatly refuse to speak French with the English unless I/we are in the company of French people.

I think this stems from seeing & hearing English people speaking French in small groups in public ie in bars etc....it makes me cringe....I can't get past that I'm afraid.

I've been here 10 years like you, & have French friends, along with Dutch, German etc; a lot of my clients are French, & I have to admit that I've made a conscious effort to avoid spending too much time with exclusively English people.

I feel more than ever that this is justified after working recently in the Charente for 3 months & seeing how (some of) the English fail so miserably to integrate....also certain experiences with Angloinfo & the like have discouraged me from living the expat life...

That said, it's not meant as any reflection on any of the people on this site, that I've had any contact with

62

agree too, the liferaft observation is very true, when you live in a tourist area which many english speakers visit you don't want to have to explain your whole situation to strangers just because you speak English. Andrew , your corner shop comment is also very appropriate too, totally agree and thats how I feel if I bump into english speakers in my cafe when I know the owner who is a friend cant speak english. its like im being rude to him. mind you I would possibly not have made so many friends if I hadn't spoken so much friench to begin with as id have been immersed with english speakers. lots of french people speak english and it would have been easier to let them, but I refused and went back in french. it paid off in the end. i've never refused to speak english to an english person but definitely tried to avoid being in long conversation in front of other french people.

63

another aside but on topic - my in-laws speak occitan when they're alone or with their neighbours/family of their generation but wouldn't dream of speaking it when there are others in the room/around them who don't understand/speak it. All about being polite at the end of the day but I agree that it's pointless for two anglophones to use another language, if they're alone, if one of them struggles using it ;-)

64

i agree here that if in the company of other french people I would speak french in france, unless the other person does not speak any french. I would feel like I was being rude to others not to, for example in our cafe.

65

I agree with all of that. I often end up speaking French to my sister if there are French-speakers in our group, say at a bar.

66

I agree with Véronique and Andrew - there's a time and a place for speaking English in France. I can speak French pretty well (OH is french and kids are bilingual) but obviously enjoy speaking in my mother-tongue - which we do in the house and in private 1 to 1 conversations with other anglophones when out and about. However, I do think its rude when people gabble away in a language which is not understood by all in certain situations - having been on the receiving end of such behaviours in the past I know how it made me feel and do not want to engender such feelings in others. A month or so ago, I was in the hairdressers when another Brit arrived and proceeded to dump her bag in front of me and the hairdresser (I was mid-coiffure!) and spoke at length in English. I replied in French to try and nudge her into being polite but to no avail. I could see the hairdresser felt awkward and I was annoyed as I enjoy the opportunities (few and far between as they are) to speak French with different people - it's good practice for me.

At the end of the day it is a combination of good sense, la politesse and education - there will always be those who are unable or unwilling to respond appropriately!

67

It is probably neither snobbish nor arrogant. Experience shows that demonstrations of alleged ambitions on integration in every days life often fail thoroughly. It is rather an expression of an individual perspective how I do in a country, if I behave as a guest or want to be regarded as "indigenous". The line is very slim and suddenly you are neither fish nor flesh. Then integration looks like a desire to curry favor.

When someone can not express him/herself in a language it is properly self-evident to speak the language he/she knows better so that a meaningful discussion takes place and what is said is understood. However, it is also a difference if someone for years is working in an environment of an international operating company or in a tobacco shop in the province. If I can not get ahead with my French I try my silly English and if this does not work still a few other languages remain to give it a try,- this always shifts the conversation.

After all, self-righteousness is completely stupid.

68

Well, as a language professional (translator), I would obviously have to agree that language is "simply a means of communication", but it also much more than that (it would be too long to go into that here). Suffice to say that language is the founding stone of civilisation.

You just need to look at the way the French put distance between themselves (or not) with the "vous" and "tu" to realise that language is very complex.

For you British, language is often a marker of regional origin, social class and education.

With the lady in the shop, I think it's one of two things:

1) She has a problem with you, for some unknown reason that you won't be able to do too much about -- in this case, can't you just make your money talk and take your business elsewhere? (I recall an example in Dijon where there was one racist tabac-owner and one Italian guy who welcomed me with big smiles and "How are things with you?" every time I went for cigarettes -- no need to tell you which tabac I went to most.)

2) After a certain while in France, we all integrate and just want to get on with our lives (unlike phase 1 where fellow English-speakers are like liferafts!). This means we actively AVOID contact with other English-speakers, particularly newbies (see the liferaft phenomenon above), because this tends to lead to 10-minute conversations about how you ended up in France, what you work at, etc., etc., basically awkward social situations that we all -- and perhaps especially British people -- prefer to avoid.

You DO need to make an effort with the language, to integrate, and out of respect for the country, especially in areas where there are a lot of English people -- the case in Dordogne, I believe.

I hope this helps.

My advice would just be to boycott the shop if you feel that the lady isn't being civil to you.

69

I think it's probably the opposite - her French is probably really BAD, but since she can speak some and you can't, it makes her feel superior.

I used to work in an American office in Paris that served mostly Americans, and I can't tell you the number of times clients would call, speak in very poor French with a terrible accent, and then continue speaking French when I replied in English. I never knew whether to keep speaking French to them (and drag out a painful experience for both of us) or switch languages and possibly offend them by implying that their French was bad (which it usually was). (FTR, not to brag - My French is perfect, and French people regularly think I'm French. I learned in school like everyone else, but I just have a good ear for it). The assistant in the office, who spoke French like a 5 year old, thought her French was fantastic and would ream us out for any perceived mistake even though she could hardly say a complete sentence correctly herself.

I believe it's called the Dunning-Kruger effect: when you're incompetent at something, you overestimate your competence at that thing, and when you're highly competent (which it sounds like you are, and your French is probably better than you think it is), you overestimate others' competence and doubt your own abilities.

Personally, I do have SOME anglophone friends with whom I speak French. With some, it's because we met as part of a mixed group that usually spoke French and just got in the habit. With others, it's because we attended a French immersion program together and were required to speak French all the time on pain of expulsion, so we just always do. And while it's true that I assume people here are French unless proven otherwise, I would never continue speaking French with someone who was clearly struggling just because it makes me feel good.

I would call her on it but stroke her ego at the same time - "Aren't you British? Can we speak English, please? My French isn't that good. But yours is fantastic, where did you learn? I'm looking for a good class to take" or something like that.

Good luck!

70

Difficult one but Véronique has said pretty much what I think (and do). I too own a tabac and spend my life speaking French (OH and kids are french) and have some anglophone customers. Most speak in French to me, even if they struggle, one or two wait to speak to me so they can speak in English. One or two have complemented my good English :-)

But I have to admit that I feel very uncomfortable talking in English when there are French people in the shop. It reminds me of the indian corner shops in the UK where you never know if they're talking about you or being rude etc.

As a side, I came to languages late - I started Italian at 30 and French a year later. It's a long hard struggle and takes years to be really comfortable or go through the gcse/A level/degree/masters route. It really is a marathon - stick with it ;-)

au fait, I enjoy speaking English on the very, very rare occasions I get to speak my mother tongue!

71

But if 2 anglophone (or whatever language) people speak French together in a shop in France when there are French people present surely they are just being polite - if they are alone together in the same shop then it would be normal to speak English - it's a bit weird to speak a language that neither masters if there's no reason to do so. But I'd feel rude, personally, speaking a language that not everyone present can at least get by in.

Oh & by the way I'm not a language snob - I grew up speaking both languages because I'm half French & half British. There's no merit to it at all & some of the most accomplished polyglots in the world are poor and semi- or illiterate.

72

Maybe the person in your tabac wants to be seen to be speaking French by French people? Or does she also speak only French to you if you are alone with her? If I were working in a shop & there were Fr speakers around (I'm thinking local oldies who don't speak English) I wouldn't speak English (or whatever language) to someone foreign especially if I know they speak some French.

73

I have a confession to make Glen - I used to be one. When we moved to France I wanted to fit in, I decided the only way to do that was to speak French all the time. It certainly helped and now we have a lot of French friends but after 7 years I now realise how silly it was to ignore our English language. I don't want to be French, my husband and I are both English, I don't know and cannot explain why I felt embarrassed to speak English when out...but that has all changed. I am now very happy, very comfortable to speak either language. I am not ashamed of being English, I import Marmite & Bisto and support England in Rugby. So perhaps it was a confidence thing. Perhaps when I first moved to France I wanted to integrate so much that I threw myself into it 150%. Now it's less important as we're integrated and we have children who will be naturally bilingual. We've made friends with other English speakers - British, American, Australian nearby and of course I'm an active member on SFN. I do my best to help other English speakers in France and if I hear someone struggling in any situation I'll always offer to help.

So that was my reason for being a bit of a language snob but I am pleased to say I'm over it now. I used to be a wine snob too but that's gone as well - having kids & living in rural France has totally changed my perspective on a lot of things - for the better I'm absolutely sure.