New Passport

General Discussion
21

Hang on WTF are you going on about?

Sorry, what “facts” would you like me to provide - how the EU interacts with 3rd nations as regards travel is, um, lemme see, a fact is it not?

And as we are about to become a 3rd nation this inconvenient “fact” would appear to be rather more pertinent than your memories of halcyon days travelling around Europe more than 45 years ago

This is my ******* point - I do have direct experience of the paperwork in moving goods around the EU before the days of full harmonisation between EU and UK (this was just before the Schengen Convention so there were still border posts and controls) and it was an utter pain. As you seem to agree out this is necessary for non-EU countries today and, might I remind you, we are about to become a non-EU country again - so are likely to go back to this level of paperwork. Today, there is no formality - I could stick that expensive workstation in my boot, drive to the client in Germany, set it up, write some software for them, put it back in my boot and return to the UK with not one shred of paperwork.

Yes, I posted my beliefs - they are no less valid than yours; however I might argue that they are on firmer foundations.

Apart from the fact that you seem to be having difficulty comprehending it we are not saying anything very much different - you believe (do you not) that there will be no barrier to travel based on some ancient memory of the 1960s, I believe there will be no substantial barrier to tourist travel based on current EU agreements with 3rd nations.

There will however, inevitably, be more paperwork involved than today where we are, for the moment, an EU member.

I hesitate to say so because I will be accused of merely believing it rather than it being a fact but the world was a very different (and rather less bureaucratic in some ways) place in the 1960s

22

To pick up on this point - no there was never a problem for tourists converting £ sterling to Francs, pesetas, Lire, Marks or any other currency. Turn up at the bank slap your ££’s on the counter, pick up a load of whatevers and walk out - having left a substantial fraction of the value of the ££’s you started with in the bank.

For a tourist going ££’s->Francs->££’s would loose you, what, 25% or more. Even as a business where you might not get quite so ripped off it was a pretty expensive part of trading across borders. It is one of the things known as a “non tariff barrier” to trade which the EU sought to eliminate - in this case by having a common currency.

23

Ask me a few questions about the trip I had with my parents in Europe when I was 10 years old. You might be surprised by how much I can remember including some of the hassle involved. £100 total spend because my parents were only entitled to hold £50 each, credit notes from the RAC in case we had problems with the car, an ACI driving licence for Italy and fuel coupons for both Italy and Yugoslavia, no reciprocal medical cover so having to pay for hospital treatment in Athens. Documentation and passports were checked at every border crossing and there was not one set of rules that covered all of the countries visited. The recollections of a 10 year old are likely to be as accurate as those of an adult.

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24

While I was very privileged to have travelled to Europe with my parents at about that age it was usually a trip to Spain, or perhaps Majorca - early package holidays; we even did the staying in a hotel that was still being built thing.

We were normally full board and my parents - while ahead of the trend in taking foreign holidays in the early 70’s - were not especially adventurous so meals out in restaurants didn’t figure, nor did trips a long way from the resort. In fact I only recall one occasion where we hired a car (possibly a 2CV) and dad got very confused about driving on the right.

None of this changes the fact that what we did in the 1960’s has scant bearing on our future relations with the EU.

25

I wouldn’t argue with your beliefs, it would be a waste of time. Apart from traveling with a computer on which you base your argument about it becoming difficult to move around the E.U. without a 'painful level of paperwork, which, I might add you don’t know if it will be the case!

As for barriers against travel, there never were any! of course a passport will be necessary; it is now! I don’t know if there will be barriers against future travel. I don’t know if there will be more paperwork than is required today, and there is a lot of it despite what you say. I don’t know if I require a Carte de Sejour or even if I will be allowed to remain in France after Brexit! My point is neither do you yet you pontificate about the future after Brexit as if the things you say are fact!!! They are not, you know as much as I do and that is nothing!

26

Kenneth… how long have you resided in France?

27

Pot meet kettle.

I am quite entitled to hold an opinion, you know. I agree that none of us can be certain of what will happen post Brexit and have been quite clear on the fact that I am just guessing - I never claimed to have some infallible ability to predict the future or to have some divine source of information.

But if you wish to take a “best guess” then the way in which EU countries deal with 3rd nations at present is a reasonable starting point and, frankly, a better one than memories from the 1960’s (or earlier ?)

You are, of course equally entitled to your opinion, no problems with that and if it is simply “I don’t know what will happen” then I totally support you - I don’t know either. I am prepared to speculate a little and I have been clear on what base I am using for those speculations, you might not want to do that but that should not lead to furious arguments.

However, at times your argument seems to have been “there will be no barriers because there weren’t any before the EU” - that is just as speculative as anything I said but I don’t think that it holds water. For one thing there were barriers - David has pointed out a few and you seem to forget that, at the time you had to show your passport at every border within the EU and that customs paperwork, if you had to deal with it, was a nightmare. I also suspect that would not have got into any of the “Iron Curtain” countries which are now part of the EU without a lot of bureaucracy.

You also seem to forget how much tourists were ripped off changing currencies - if you travelled extensively did you not have to change not just ££’s into Francs but Francs into Lire and Lire into Marks - did you ever wonder why that was so expensive or did you just uncritically hand your money over each time?

You also seem to confuse measures which are intended to mitigate the effects of barriers for most casual travellers with the barriers or lack thereof themselves.

As I said I am quite entitled to hold an opinion, and quite entitled to voice and defend that opinion (and you yours). I am open to change my mind but if you wish to get me to do that you will have to come up with something better than “there won’t be any barriers because there weren’t any pre EU” - that is, unfortunately to misunderstand the situation now, as well as the situation then.

For what it is worth I will say again that, in practice, I broadly agree that for casual tourists not much will change - a miniscule increase in paperwork at most, perhaps.

But the regulatory framework beneath that will, unless we join the EEA1, change radically.

1] Sorry, that should be stay in the EEA.

28

Quite a tirade! Of course you are entitled to an opinion, did I say otherwise? We do seem to agree that neither of us have no idea what will happen post Brexit and I never accused you of being fey either!
As for ‘best guessing’ I’m sorry, guessing isn’t something I do and speculating is simply another form of guessing. It is pointless and has no relevance regarding reality.

As for bureaucracy and traveling: The old Yugoslavia, Hungry and Poland were on my travel list and apart from the usual passport and visa checks there was never a problem. Of course I had to change money though I never felt it was expensive or something onerous. It is a business and I still have to change money on my travels. Nothing is free!!! It would appear that you objected to changing currency whilst quite happily being able to afford to travel! Or perhaps you never traveled, I wouldn’t know of course.

If you are going to quote me then please try, at least, to get it accurate. I haven’t written that there ‘won’t be any barriers because there weren’t any pre E.U.’ You really must calm down.

We do seem to agree that for ‘ordinary’ people we are both of the opinion that very little will change. For all other aspects regarding Brexit our views seem to diverge! I don’t have a clue what is going to happen, along with millions of others, whilst you appear to know what will happen.

29

Fair enough looking back you didn’t make that claim.

But if you are to ask the courtesy that I quote you accurately I would ask that you do the same - I did not say I know what will happen, I said what I thought might be the case based on current 3rd nation arrangements and what has been published about ETIAS.

But knowing what is going to happen, no, I don’t think anyone can claim that.

Maybe - I suspect what really annoyed my was your

comment which was pretty bloody condescending to be honest.

Can we agree that we sort-of agree for different reasons and move on :slight_smile:

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30

Please could you tell us where you have obtained your information?

31

Diverse sources - google “EU passport” and you will find confirmation that the EU does not issue passports - member states do, the passport itself clearly identifies as a UK passport - it will remain valid up to its expiry date.

The only issue that could come up is that it is likely that you will need 6 months validity on your passport to travel into the EU post Brext so people close to needing renewal could get caught out.

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32

Yes of course we agree to sort of disagree! One last point though! I didn’t say you know what will happen. I said you appear to know, that is quite different isn’t it? A moot point perhaps but valid I think.

33

20 years.

34

Are you seriously suggesting that those things all changed the day Britain joined the E.U.? Had we not joined you believe we would have remained in some sort of time vacuum! Don’t be absurd, all of those things you have mentioned would have progressed and advanced with time. As for the comment on Yugoslavia-----! When did it join the E.U., I forget!

35

Hi Kenneth… if you have resided in France for 20 years… you cannot be “turned out”… so that is one less thing to worry about. :relaxed:

36

I’d get off the sauce old boy, you are reading things that are not written. I was recalling aspects of a holiday that I had when I was ten years old; a holiday that I can remember in minute detail and I mentioned it because you were so dismissive about childhood memories.

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37

Yes you were recalling things that happened when you were ten years old! Somewhat exceptionally you are able to recall things from that age in so much detail. You really must have been exceptional that your parents confided in you so much, passports, exchange rates etc. A most mature ten year old indeed. Your recall and the confidence your parents placed in you by confiding all that detail is to be commended!!

38

I must be very exceptional too because at the tender age of 8 years old , for reasons that I wont go into here, I had to take over the running of the house. I remember it very well inded, as well as some even earlier detailed memories of when I was 4 years old.
Maybe you don’t have the same capacity that some of us do !

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39

Stella,
Quite honestly I don’t think anyone is going to be ‘turned out’. I believe there may be an adjustment in terms of having to have some form of Carte de Sejour but that’s about it.

Lets face it, I believe there are 1.5. million British ex pats living in Europe as residents. I have also read that there is close to Three million ‘europeans’ living in Britain. Can anyone believe that all governments are going to simply throw out their respective ex pats? I don’t think so.

The bottom line is still that no-one knows what is finally going to happen. All the scaremongering in the world by ‘remainers’ is pointless; bordering on stupid. We simply don’t know. And before the cry goes up let me say that ‘Brexiteers’ also have no idea how it will pan out.

40

Hi Kenneth… my question and reply was due to this sentence in one of your posts… of course we cannot speak for others, but 20 years is more than enough and it written in French Law. :relaxed: