70,000 protesting in Paris! Can’t believe this, in this day and age. What’s the big deal about gay couples getting married. Is it just religion that makes people think like this? (my wife’s a Hindu and i’m an atheist. Should we have been precluded from marriage as well). Is it the sex side of things? Millions of hetrosexuals indulge in the same pleasures as gay men and women.
As far as adoption; surely kids deserve parents of any persuasion rather than being brought up in care. There are millions of one parent and also dysfunctional straight families. Two happy gay people, men or women, must be another and better option for children.
Get a life France, and get out of the dark ages!
Exactly again.
What amazes me is the hoo-ha from the religious objectors - it is none of their business since it is a civil matter and not a religious one - we have separation of church & state and if two adults want to get married then they should be able to. Nothing to do with the church at all - religious marriage isn't even valid here since priests are not registrars unlike in GB. What the govt is doing even consulting religious authorities is beyond me. When it comes down to civil law their opinion is irrelevant.
Exactly.
Not sure what you mean by common sense, Carol, but it might be worth reiterating what I have already said on this matter. Marriage is a civil right, it is a civil contract between two consenting adults and confers certain rights, including inheritance rights, pension rights, and so on. It seems to me only common sense to allow two people regardless of whether or not they are same sex couples, to have this civil right available to them.
I am a social scientist and agree with Jo wholeheartedly. I think the disgraceful homophobia stirred up by the right wing press is abhorrent. I also think that Rome is on a crusade to self-destruction with its position plus wheeling on Professor Rafael A. Martínez, the Professor of Philosophy of Science at the Pontificia Università della Santa Croce, the Vatican's university to denounce the Higgs boson as 'bad science'. Coincidentally, all of the scientists advising the papal seat directly are in another faculty of the same university. Sum ergo, what they do not like, they tell the world is wrong - no matter what better evidence or how much there is to the contrary. In turn that helps feed 'traditionalists' who naively believe the world does not progress.
Sur Facebook
- Rejoindre la page "Oui au mariage pour tous"
- Rejoindre la page de SOS homophobie
Sur Twitter
- Suivre le compte @SOShomophobie et inviter vos amis à en faire autant
- Retwitter réguliérement les messages de @SOShomophobie
- Intervenir régulierement sur #mariagepourtous #unpapaunemaman #mariagehomosexuel
I love wikipedia.
"Hate crime laws
On 31 December 2004, the National Assembly approved an amendment to existing anti-discrimination legislation, making homophobic, sexist, racist, xenophobic etc. comments illegal. The maximum penalty of a €45,000 fine and/or 12 months imprisonment has been criticized by civil liberty groups such as Reporters Without Borders as a serious infringement on free speech. But the conservative government of President Jacques Chirac pointed to a rise in anti-gay violence as justification for the measure. Ironically, an MP in Chirac's own UMP party, Christian Vanneste, became the first person to be convicted under the law in January 2006 although this conviction was later cancelled by the Cour de cassation after a refused appeal.[16][17]
The law of 30 December 2004 created the Haute autorité de lutte contre les discriminations et pour l'égalité (High Authority against Discrimination and for Equality). Title 3 and Articles 20 and 21 of the law amended the law of 29 July 1881 on freedom of the press to make provisions for more specific offenses including injury, defamation, insult, incitement to hatred or violence, or discrimination against a person or group of persons because of their gender, sexual orientation or disability.
When a physical assault or murder is motivated by the sexual orientation of the victim, the law increases the penalties that are normally given.
LGBT rights movement in France
See also: LGBT social movements
LGBT rights organizations in France include Act Up Paris, SOS Homophobie, Arcadie, FHAR, Gouines rouges, GLH, CUARH, and L'Association Trans Aide, ( Trans Aid Association, established in September 2004)."
Your daughter and her girlfriend are very brave and will get my vote for a legion of honour any time.
I'm a scientist. Human homosexuality is not an aberration it is a natural state of being. It serves many very useful biological, sociological, evolutionary purposes. Being anti-gay is completely deluded. It's like not recognising the earth is round. Homophobes, try reading actual books instead of the bible or the Sun news. (you will need a dictionary, but again, these are actual factual books and not generally written by zealots.)
I was reading press stories earlier and yes Bruce, but as the papers are saying the non-discrimination laws are not being respected, or if you like, the churches/religions are being allowed to discriminate. I think the Quakers are making a lot of sense in there, listen to them Dave and Nick. For those of us who do not do religion there may be an interesting ringside seat to watch all their schisms and other theatrical activities.
Just read that even good old Dave and Nick have got their heads round this. Might be just chasing the pink vote though?
Angela, it would appear, is in the minority in the force with which she expresses her view on Bruce's question. We are all arguing but nobody is shouting her down, she is entitled to her views. As Bruce adds, people with her views are the reason Gay Pride marches happen. That too is right. However, in opposition to Angela, I do not see how that or any other form of protest of lobbying from the gay 'community' is possibly oppressing anybody at all. I just see people standing up for their right to have rights in the best civil rights tradition which I have seen in many forms over my lifetime whether in Alabama, Pretoria, London, Paris or wherever else. One thing that is forgotten about civil rights is that we tend to see and hear the fiery rhetoric of born public speakers but then miss the reality behind. Civil rights movements demand change but seldom demand that people who disagree or challenge their position are made to change their own. The underlying thought is usually that once their goals are achieved, opponents will learn by example and change will follow. To a greater extent that has happened with gay people already.
In the 1960s I had gay fellow students who were forced to hide their sexuality. They would have been arrested, imprisoned and either sentenced to prison for 'indecency', or one of another set of ridiculous offences, or sent to mental hospitals to be treated, often with horrifying electric shock treatment. So they stayed hidden. Now that they are allowed to be out in the open in what is actually still only a small part of the world, their lives are just like everybody else. One of my fellow alumni who I see every couple of years is 64 years old, has been in the same relationship since a student, so over 40 years to begin with and has had a successful career, made loadsa dough and so on but they could never have a family. That is their biggest regret. Neither partner has been camp or showy, just seemingly very normal people. They have never marched in public, that is simply not their way of doing things and anyway they are a bit stuck in the mindset of our younger days. Instead they donate money to campaigning organisations. They want to see younger gay people allowed to formalise their relationships, have families and almost above all, they both being practising Christians, want to see religions opening their hearts, minds and doors.
Angela has a notion of ONLY 5% of the world being homosexual. For me that was an instant challenge. I went out looking for a statistic or other data to confirm or otherwise. I looked at gay organisations realising they may be partial and give much larger figures as part of it. For all my years of research and tenacity I cannot find such a figure. Indeed, it would appear that where research was done at a time when changes in attitude were happening in the 1970s some psychologists were speculating on anything up to 30% of men being latent gays. They did not look at women for some reason. There again, because non-penetrative sex does not count, prosecutions have always been lower than for men so the 'establishment' never really took them seriously. Anyway, the bottom line is that we do not know. Apart from anything else, since it is a personal matter anyway, what right does anybody have to know anyway?
I am not picking a fight with Angela. I strongly agree with her sentiment that it is time we forgot nationalities - I for one see myself as an internationalist although I do retain an identity with ethnic and cultural luggage. That is a really great argument to support, but then I get lost when somebody who supports what is a universal principle then does not hold a 'live and let live' attitude at least. I gave yesterday's discussion some thought, came to these 'conclusions' and actually all said and done when I rethink it could have simply said it all in a single sentence of support for Bruce's original statement.
People like Angela are the reason that Gay Pride marches exist. Straight folk don’t need to stand up for themselves and be counted! Gay people do, or risk suppression.
25 or so years ago,I had a gay friend whose partner of 23 years died. At his funeral, his family who had blanked him for most of his adult life, came out of the woodwork in force and totally rejected his lifelong partner. They also contested his will, and won.
This was in the UK and, hopefully it wouldn’t happen nowadays. They both would have loved to have kids and, I think, have made great parents.
I would like to know if Asexuals are 'safe' then, to be candidates for same-sex marriage, and/or to be adoptive parents... Lol, come on, where is Angela, I really want to hear your opinion on this one.
Pretty please! Come back!
:D
Second like!
Like!
I really don't see what the big deal is, why can't people who love each other get married and adopt children just because they are gay? My husband and I have 4 children and the most important and best thing we give them, in my mind, is love and a safe, stable environment. Couples don't need to be heterosexual to give this to kids, parents can be amazing, or can be awful or somewhere in between, but it's not because of their sexual orientation. What I think is a really big deal and wrong is that some children are brought up in care when there are loving family's out there who want to adopt but the state won't let them because they are gay!
Spot on Bruce! :)
Bravo Bruce, Stella and you are a triumph of reason over the hypocritical dictates of the know betters who make a 'minority' of everybody and everything they do not like or understand.
Thanks Brian. We are completely on the same page here. It's a pity everyone isn't as lucid and openminded!!