Question:sharing water supply with farmer for his calves

I think @Stella’s reply is useful - @George1 can explain that he would have absolutely no problem but he has heard from a friend that the Mairie in another commune has advised it would not be permitted. I am sure that a Frenchman would understand :slight_smile:

As touched upon, the problem here is surely that agricultural use and domestic use are regulated differently in times of drought with particuliers prevented from using water whereas agriculteurs (and agricultrices) are allowed to continue - so the farmer might lose his supply just when it is needed.

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(Apologies for the lengthy post below…)
Firstly thank you everyone for taking the time to offer such helpful, constructive, and thoughtful comments. I am very grateful to you… SF at its best…

Secondly, we unfortunately have a fait accompli.

After posting my question first thing this am, (the farmer literally only called us about dealing with the pipe last night) I went for a bike ride, and came back to find the farmer, his wife, son and grandson, plus tractors, diggers etc all poised, ready for action. I felt thoroughly boxed in as I wanted to properly review the SF comments before deciding on a course of action, but felt there would have been a huge loss of goodwill to simply send them away.The comments though did enable me to raise many of the points with the farmer - in real time. I should stress that the attitude of the farmer was characteristically friendly, quite the opposite of threatening etc.

To take the various helpful suggestions, it would apparently cost something like 1500€ minimum to pay to run a pipe 150-200m from the water mains in the road to a suitable location in the meadow. That appeared to be out of the question when I raised it…several times!

He agreed that this was purely an arrangement between us as individuals NOT between two neighbouring properties. Obviously not a guarantee of avoiding creating an easement but I will document the discussion, for what it’s worth.

We agreed that we would charge him for his use only at cost, per the bills, specifically for the itemised consumption-related charges, including the various amounts for action against pollution etc. There can’t be an actual profit element if solely at cost, you’d think, but there might be an argument for disclosing the arrangement on a return, albeit it is hard to see the fisc being terribly interested if there is no profit/profit motive. He thought we might be looking at about 200-300€ a year in cost reimbursements.

I asked about potential water restrictions.He said this part of Normandy has never - to date(!) experienced restrictions whether on farmers or individuals, other than filling swimming pools. He thought it unlikely there would be such restrictions but understood that in theory it might stop us from supplying him if we were facing restrictions due to increased usage, or extra costs. He added that Veolia might send us an automated letter pointing out our consumption has doubled etc, ie do we have a leak etc. He has received similar (so have we) and says there is zero follow up.

We discussed the differing approaches that French and Brits might take . I explained that the advice I was receiving was that reselling water was illegal (thank you @Stella), and the arrangement was not really advisable etc. He smiled and pointed out that he’s just asked our other (French) neighbour whether he would be open to a similar arrangement, and the neighbour leapt at the idea. He said that he has several existing arrangements to share water bills with neighbours at his main farm, which have apparently been going for several years without any issues arising. I doubt any are documented via notaries, or indeed by anybody seemingly!

He suggested that the common reaction of French people - not necessarily the authorities(!) - to such an issue would be the classic shrug. Perhaps I am being too British about it. I admit to being uncomfortable with some aspects of this, but have hopefully tried to draw the worst of the sting from the fait accompli…thanks in large measure to your comments.

I’d be very French and British about it if I came home to find someone digging up my land and trying to force my hand.
Hopefully it’ll work out well for you. Have a look at the meter from time to time make sure he doesn’t sometimes do a bit of maintenance and reverse it.

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I luckily have a much more straightforward situation than you @George1 that mine isn’t mains water. From around this time every year my nearest farmer starts visiting my two wells daily for his herds. He limits it to once a day for each well unless it’s super hot and to give him his dues I know he also uses tap water from home and a source on one of his fields but the combination of being a good neighbour to the farmer, and as someone who doesn’t eat them it seems like the least I can do to help the cows before they inevitably end up as burgers or such. We did have cables running across the land last year as he (sensibly) didn’t want to use the generators during the heatwave and I winced every time he filled up the water tanks using my electricity but clearly it was pennies in comparison to what your water bill will increase and given he grows/ makes all his own food we were kept well fed for our extra electricity cost :joy: If someone can tell me which box on the tax forms for 5 kilos of strawberries, 10 kilos of tomatoes, many bottles of homemade cider etc I can ensure the fisc knows the situation :sweat_smile::laughing:

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Thank you Jane and Kirstea for prompting the question in my mind about how much water calves typically drink, ie to arrive at a rough estimate of costs.

I’ve read a few articles this morning which seem to suggest that calves drink roughly 10-15L a day, increasing to 20-25L in hot weather. The calves next door are usually only 6 in number and stay for 6 months max (ie late spring to early autumn).

On the basis of this, say 20L a day x6 (120L) x 180 days = 21600L or 21.6m3. That comes to 44€ (2.08 TTC per m3) plus another 5€ for volume related charges (‘Lutte contre la pollution’). IF my maths and assumptions are correct (neither is a given!), I seem to be looking at @50€ a year in water costs, subject obviously to future price increases, possible usage restrictions etc.

If anyone has any thoughts on calves consumption of water - or my maths, I’d be grateful…

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Calves may only drink 25l, but they grow very quickly! And so does their consumption.

Like all children they can also be a bit messy, so will splash quite a bit around the place. And the troughs will lose some from evaporation.

So I would double that estimate.

And if your water is 2.08 TTC that is about half ours!

Thats for the supply but how much for the treatment/disposal costs? Some regions charge more than others x1, x2 or even x3 the water supply charge.

I think my first intervention in this thread, one post in, is correct. Even more so now after I read of the ‘fait accompli’. That alone would have turned me against the idea and hang the friendly relations, imo he has destroyed that at a stroke.

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He had agreed to pay any volume/consumption elements including ‘preservation des ressources en eau’ and ‘lutte contre la pollution’ (which I estimate to be about 10€ pa in total). The only other items on my bill are ‘redevances part syndicale’, which may be volume based, but don’t appear to be, so I won’t charge him for them. We are not on mains drains so the downstream 'processing charges are seemingly minimal as a result.

Thank you Jane, much appreciated

I understand the reaction! To try and put it into context, the farmer is really stressed and desperate. He is almost totally immobile due to various knee operations, and cannot drive his tractor to ferry water his calves. His farming son lives 50km away…He has been a kind, considerate neighbour since our arrival. I think enabling his calves to be watered, using an existing pipe, is probably the least we can do, even if there are some risks for us. I really value good relations with our farming neighbour, and want to help. I genuinely don’t think his family intended to pressure us, I suspect they are just at their wits end as calves are due here any day, and saw no other realistic way to water them.

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Fair enough, perhaps I was a little hasty, but what you have said only strengthens my doubts. If he is as you say it may not be long before you have a different neighbour, family or otherwise, who may not be as grateful and understanding of a ‘friendly agreement’, and you might find yourself in a bind that you cannot at the moment imagine.

It brings to my mind the very good advice I have been given in another thread when speaking of wheelchair ramps for my wife.
@Gabby

What works for you and your wife today in terms of her weight + chair weight + ramp slope + your strength will not always be the same. Life happens, and you may not always be the one helping her.

Different circumstances but there is a parallel. Things change and should be foreseen and guarded against.

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We all want to be on good terms with our nieghbours but there is a line to draw, I’m with @David_Spardo on this one. I hope your water arrangement works for his 6 calves, which might later be a few more, give someone an inch and they will take a yard.
The farmers son might live 50k away but he was quick ro arrive to get the water running while you were out shopping.
Sorry for my negative comments but what some perceive as good deeds sometimes come back to bite you.

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George1, it is obvious that you want to be a good neighbour to your farmer/neighbour in his hour of need, which is commendable. That said, there have been a lot of good points raised by others in this thread. I wonder if it would be a good idea to send the farmer a letter, stating in detail the arrangement you both have agreed to and to include some paragraphs that state it is not a permanent arrangement and that it is understood that the agreement does not confer any right of way etc over your land.

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I’m with the others. As commendable as it is that you want to help out your neighbour, this has the potential to backfire spectacularly. I hope that doesn’t happen, but I do think you should protect you and your family first and foremost.

All it takes is for your neighbour to have a falling out with someone who’s aware of what he’s doing, and they could spill the beans to the water company. It’s you who will be in trouble if that happens - not the neighbour.

It sounds like you’re committed for now but, as @Mike313 says, put it in writing that this is only a temporary measure to allow him to feed his calves that are due any day now.

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Yes, notaires know this stuff. Definitely ask them, I think a notaire rather than a lawyer would draft any agreement or the key parts of anything written to be topped and tailed with something friendlier as well.

Is the water coming from your own well? or from the mains George1?

Given his age and his health issues it would be a kindness to help out. I hope it can be done non-onerously for you and the farmer.

Can you let us know as time goes on how it turns out? Defo chat informally with your notaire, gut feeling you’ve assessed their need correctly (and son prob so relieved he made a special effort to come) but over time things can slip and you may end up dealing with other family members with different aims.

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Excellent points. We have verbally agreed that this is an arrangement strictly between individuals, not properties, ie that it does not pass on when either property changes hands…I need to chat to him to make sure he fully understands what I am saying, and that it’s temporary, is not intended to create an easement etc. Then we’ll focus on documenting this.

One niggle at the back of my mind. I recall reading on SF some years back a post from a France-based farmer who said you should not document a neighbour agreement (ie it should remain verbal only) since it perversely could create rights where none previously exist. I can’t track this down, may have misremembered (easy to do!) but need to research this further. I also need to further research how to avoid creating an easement/servitude - where there is no agreement to do so. Interestingly online the Notorial advice on servitudes is all about how to (intentionally) create one or extinguish an existing one, not how to prevent one arising unintentionally, which may be significant.

It’s coming from the mains, and will keep a small cattle trough topped up (I guess it has some sort of stopcock) when the calves arrive.

If your farmer neighbour could arrive at yours with all the means to dig a trench, why couldn’t he dig a trench from the mains ,near his own land to where he needed a tap ,lay in all the pipework and have a proper connection done by the water board?

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Thank you. I suggested this several times during the installation day, but he dismissed it as too expensive (1,500€ for the connection) and taking too long to implement with Veolia. I suspect the family have been overwhelmed by the impact of the farmer, and it seems also his wife both being hospitalised, and are desperate to get something sorted out quickly. I agree that the sustainable answer is as you and others suggest, ie put in a proper mains connection.

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If it is only 6 calves, then unlikely to bankrupt you. So you can take it gently… have they put a sous-compteur on the new pipe so you can see what is being used?

Best would be to try to reconcile monthly as getting someone to pay 10€ will be easier than 200€

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