Referendum(s)

Brexit
1

The continued arguing between those who want to stay in the E.U. and those who want to leave borders on the insane! We have seen ,in other referendums in Europe, that where the result wasn’t ‘satisfactory’ then another one was held, that being o.k. the E.U. didn’t require a third one!

Brexit is unique in that we haven’t had a second vote. Neither did we have a second vote when Ted Heath gave us the option of joining or not. Would it not be feasible, and indeed logical, that once a referendum has been held then the result is sacrosanct as is a general election for a statutory five years?

If the issues are still being argued so passionately after five years then another referendum could be held. If Corbyn forms the next government Britain has to put up with it for five years, why not the referendum? I don’t recall the arguing that has gone on following this referendum after Heath took us in, it was, as I recall, accepted.

Britain is leaving the E.U. and the constant carping by those wishing to remain is not helping Britain get the best deal it can. I’m sure the E.U. is encouraged by those wishing to stay and is making it as tough as they can, possibly in the hope of another referendum. Isn’t it time all Brits joined forces for their country, repeated referendums are ridiculous. Should there be a second then why nor a third and so on?

3 Likes
2

This is a second. The first was in 1975.

3 Likes
3

I would rather another referendum to stop this nonsense.

The majority was so small it was no mandate. The “Will of the People” on this issue was last nationally measured over 2 years ago. I do consider that the “Will of the People” has now changed as Brexit promises have now been shown to be utter rubbish and undeliverable.

It would only take 3 people per 100 to have changed to remain for “The Will of the People” to be in the opposite direction.

Scared of another referendum?

The current “Will of the People” is far more important than a measure a couple of years ago.

6 Likes
4

if only based on the fact that TM keeps changing her mind.
Strong and stable? my arse. She is weak and wobbly and in a negotiating scenario that is what opponents thrive on.
and in her typical fashion, all she can do is blame everyone else.
I just don’t get the notion that it is for the EU to deliver a ‘good’ Brexit - whatever that might be.
She’s a dead duck walking.

4 Likes
5

This trope is trotted out frequently by those who wish to leave - please could you explain how, exactly, it has held up negotiations or stopped us “getting a deal”?

Those negotiating are, pretty much to a man and woman, supporters of Brexit not Remainers. The negotiations have been held up because Mrs May has ruled out EEA or EFTA membership but her “Chequers” proposal is not acceptable to the EU as they feel that it is cherry picking the single market and puts regulatory functions that should stay within the EU in the hands of a 3rd nation.

Brexiteers want only a free trade agreement - but that necessitates checks on the Irish border which is not acceptable to the Irish (and by dint of veto not acceptable to the EU). In fact May has ruled an FTA out as “worse than no deal” because of the Irish border backstop position (which, need I remind you was agreed by David Davis).

Neither Boris, nor the ERG have actually managed to come up with a detailed, workable, plan - just a lot of vague hand waving. The ERG in particular has revealed itself to be as mad as a box of frogs.

As to a further referendum - much as I would like the opportunity to re-run the question I think it would be unwise. I will never accept that the campaigns were honest or competent and Cameron managed to turn an advisory vote into a binding one (but in doing so left us with “first past the post” which was a woefully low bar for the degree of far reaching change that Brexit will involve) but I have no reason to believe the vote itself was irregular.

More to the point a further plebiscite is fraught with difficulty - what will the question be, include a remain option or not and if you thought the campaign for the first one was bad I expect that a further campaign will be worse. It is also difficult (but not impossible, especially if the A50 negotiations are suspended to allow it to take place) to find time to squeeze one in before next March.

And what of the result - what result could possibly come from it which will do anything other than stoke the divisions which have resulted from the vote in 2016.

Personally, despite being a remainer I have swung again to the view that the only way forward is, in fact, a fully fledged “hard” Brexit, out next March whatever the state of planning and preparedness. Only then will we see, unambiguously, what Brexit means. It might be a great success - in which case I will be very happy to be wrong - but I suspect it will be an unmitigated disaster. At which point we stand a chance that the lies of the Leave campaign will be laid bare to those who believed and voted for nirvana but got samsara.

Mind you that is a dark path - political disruption just for the sake of it, is a dangerous and unpredictable tool.

6 Likes
6

It is your politicians doing their job badly (cf David Davies) which is making the process a shambles.

“Britain is leaving the E.U. and the constant carping by those wishing to remain is not helping Britain get the best deal it can. I’m sure the E.U. is encouraged by those wishing to stay and is making it as tough as they can, possibly in the hope of another referendum.”

The EU is proceeding according to the rules, internal dissension within the UK won’t change anything. What shocks us is the UK throwing away membership of the EU because of Tory infighting.

And why should the remainers shut up? Surely if you saw someone you cared about doing something likely to cause damage to himself you would say something.

13 Likes
7

Possibly the outright ban on reincarnating hasn’t helped much…??? A reincarnation application…???

“ In 2007, the Chinese government passed a decree, to take effect September 1, that each of these people who plan to be reborn must complete an application and submit it to several government agencies for approval.”

x :slight_smile:

State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5 - Wikipedia

1 Like
8

“the constant carping by those wishing to remain” should become progressively louder until someone in government has the b*lls to admit the lies that brought about the result it did. Anyone with basic intelligence should see that a 51/49% result is not a significant enough majority for such an important and potentially damaging issue.
Remainers who care for UK as well as the good that has come from being part of a united Europe should take to the streets in the hopes of shocking those self-serving spineless Conservatives into action.

6 Likes
9

Exactly. And there is a school of thought which says the UK government want to make a hash of Brexit so that they can blame all future problems on the EU.
If the EU have to enforce a border in Ireland then they will get the blame.
If there are food and medicine shortages, again the EU will be blamed.
Queues at border, EU to blame again.
The UK government are acting like warring siblings who would sooner break a toy than share it.
It’s shameful.

5 Likes
10

Well, that too but the real problem is the tension between the GFA and 3rd nation status - they are just incompatible. This one fact makes the task nearly impossible whether you are an incompetent fool (David Davies, BJ) or a negotiating genius (errr… I don’t think we have one of those).

Absolutely I really do not see why I should support this foolhardy path given that it will do significant harm to our economy and I doubt that any argument will sway me on that.

I think that there will be voices against this but I agree it is quite likely that Brexiteers will try to blame the EU (after all, it couldn’t be their fault, could it?)

7 Likes
11

Quite, why change a habit successive UK governments have had for over 40 years :wink:

4 Likes
12

I will carry on carping for the same reasons that I would try to stop somebody jumping off a cliff or throwing them self under a train.
Surely it’s very British to stand up to fools?

4 Likes
13

WTF

I give up - I did not think I could be shocked by anything to do with Brexit but this leaves me at a loss for words. Sanity has left the country.

4 Likes
14

It doesn’t surprise me. I have 3 nephews, all Tory voters. They have had privileged upbringings, all have good jobs and they think they are untouchable and superior.
My father rang to tell me that one had suggested unemployed people should be made to do national service.
The same nephew described me as v. left wing. I told him that he obviously has no idea what left wing is and my extremely left wing brother would laugh at the suggestion.
Frightening from twenty somethings!

2 Likes
15

@Teresaship “Frightening from twenty-somethings”…

I hardly think so, Theresa. It’s an age at which many young men are completely bonkers (not all young men) and do crazy things, entertain crazy and even dangerous ideas, and think themselves invincible. Most seem to settle down, at least until middle age :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:, some getsmuchworse as Private Eye has it. I’ve taken Private Eye, a scurrilous rag of seditious tittle-tattle about the great and the good, since it first appeared in 1961 and neither of us have managed to learn any manners.

2 Likes
16

Did your nephew pause to think how his conscript army would be paid given that jobseeker’s allowance is £73 a week and the lowest rung on the army pay scale is £15,364 (about 4x as much).

Not to mention the effect on morale of large numbers of conscriptees who don’t want to be there.

It’s the sort of idea that appeals to a certain type of Tory but on the whole doesn’t hold water.

That is not to say that we should ignore the problem of unemployment, especially in young people. I don’t know what the answer is but I’m pretty sure conscription isn’t it.

2 Likes
17

My father is totally against conscription so I think he would put him right.
My poor parents love all their grandchildren but are bemused to have 3 who are so politically opposite to the rest of their family. I suspect my brother, their father is a conservative but he is a quiet,thoughtful guy with a huge work ethic and a very generous heart. I honestly don’t think his kids appreciate him at all.

1 Like
18

If memory serves the first was on joining, not leaving. A different issue entirely!! Still; why quibble?

19

If you read the sentence you highlighted again you will see that I said "it is not helping’ Not quite the same thing you have written is it? ‘held up-stopped’.
I think given some of the comments here my comment about ‘insanity’ is quite near the mark!!!

20

It was two years after joining, on whether to stay in so the questions on the ballot were almost identical.

the 1975 question was:

With a yes/no answer on the ballot paper.

The 2016 question was:

With

as the options on the ballot.

Fine - could you start by defining what the “best deal” is, in your view.

Then can you cite even a specific comment and explore its ramifications to demonstrate how “constant carping by those wishing to remain” has specifically hindered the negotiating team in getting this “best deal”.