Self Defence Or Not? - Update

It will interesting to see how this pans out, hopefully it will be seen as self-defence.

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Anyone tried to force their way in here, day or night, would receive an appropriate welcome :slightly_smiling_face:

From reading the ‘reports’ about this it appears that at least one of the intruders was armed. He apparently threatened the home owner with a screwdriver, the home owner reacted to the threat and the intruder died.
It’s being called murder, IMHO it is a legitimate self defence and anyone who breaks into anothers home to commit a crime while armed deserves all they get.
It’s time that law and justice came down on the side of the victims.
I don’t know how I would react if faced with an armed intruder, unless you’ve been trained for this situation then I doubt many of us do. I would like to think that if anyone threatened a loved one then I would not hesitate (if possible) to do them grave harm and to hell with the consequences!


Snap :+1:

Lets hope the CPS see sense but I’m not convinced they will :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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It’s a tricky one. I think the law has been tested several times before. I recall an old bloke who lived alone and was faced by two lads who had broken in to his home one night, He took down a shotgun as they tried to scarper and blasted one in the back as he tried to get out of a window. The intruder died of his wounds. The occupant was charged with murder and - if my memory serves - was convicted. The law says that you can use appropriate force to deal defensively with an intruder, and the court decides what appropriate means in the relevant circumstances.

Working as a psychiatric nurse I’ve had several encounters with people who have had weapons, including one who turned on me with a bread knife. It takes training and a cool head, but people threaten when they feel themselves cornered, and it’s wise not to raise the stakes but to try to lower the tension by speaking and acting calmly, so as to ‘defuse’ the situation. Back away slowly, show an open-handed gesture, and turn slightly to one side to avoid being a full-frontal and confrontational target. It’s more likely to work than trying your hand at an attack.

I’m still here to tell the tale, I’m glad to say.

Yes, but this was an elderly man faced with the shock of intruders in his home, hardly the same situation and I don’t think he would have had any training for that.
The CPS has a rotten reputation at the moment, withholding evidence from the defence and they will have to tread very carefully with this one.
I imagine being charged with murder was more traumatic for this poor man than finding intruders in his home.

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It’s not likely to be down to the CPS, the case will have to go to court to establish the facts before the law. A life has been taken and if life can be taken without any reference to the circumstances, there is no law and no justice. Justice demands that justice be done, and be seen to be done.

Yes, Jane that is all perfectly true, as far as can be judged from third-hand reports. The actual situation is what will be examined when it comes to the trial. I feel considerable sympathy for the man whose house was burgled, it’s happened to us more than once. When we ran a clinic for the poor in Africa I slept with a Biretta pistol under my pillow in fear of intruders looking for medicines and money, intruders who might murder us in our beds. We also had dogs loose in the compound, and a klaxon siren in the roof.

We were eventually robbed by one of our workers to whom we had entrusted a key to the clinic (but not the medicine store). By careful local intelligence we managed eventually to track him down, and escorted him (accompanied by scores of our clients) to the local nick. With a little gentle persuasion from the Zambia Police he confessed to where the stuff he stole was hidden, and I recovered my beloved electric hammer drill!

Justice was done, albeit a little rough and ready in the event, but that’s Africa.

For a trial to happen the man has to be charged with committing an offence.

This cannot be murder as that has to be premeditated or intended, the charge could be manslaughter as somebody has died as a result of his actions but you would hope the situation was fully taken into account and no sentence be passed as appropriate self defence - if this happened as is being reported.

Quite correctly though it does need to be investigated so that the correct decisions can be made.

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Yes, a properly conducted investigation will put on record the facts of the incident, and this will reassure the public who will necessarily have an interest in the case, what is allowable and what is justifiable. A situation that gives everyone licence to make their own rules is no rule of law at all, unless “mob rule”.

It may sound stuffy and legalistic but any retreat from the law is to return to the law of the jungle. Believe me (or not) that isn’t pretty.

think the question self defence or not is impossible to answer as no one has the facts.

Now A more accurate question.

" Did the filthy scum bag who broke into an old mans home deserve to get stabbed? "

Answer is bloody too right hes a thieving little scroat who tried to rob an old man

yes and no. worked in forensic mental health including with soldiers and depending on each situation the action varies. I has head of the Response team and often when arriving at units action is instant. Im still here but parts of me alas are not. Tough bloody job though s hats off to you.

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pretty sure he will have been handeled with kid gloves. told gently exactly what will need to be done and for what reason.

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Too true Harry. No argument with anything you say. It’s a human tragedy. A man died, his killer didn’t intend his death. That much is fairly obvious. The circumstances commonplace and perhaps predictable. But the law must prevail, and justice will be done. All the rest is just a sideshow.


that it is. time will tell and i hope they cheer him for standing up for himself.

Only problem is if his friend comes forward and tells them a different story.

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Agree with you Jane.
@Peter Goble …
From reports this elderly man was in bed with his disabled wife when these intruders broke in. Allegedly one of them held him in the kitchen with a screwdiver while the other set about ransacking the place.
Imagine that poor man not only fearing for his own life but that of his wife too, helpless and terrified in bed !
IMHO this poor man was fully justified, what was he supposed to do, let the scum maybe beat him and his wife to tell them where any savings were hidden ? It seems that sometimes the perpetrators of crime are treated too leniently while their victims suffer !


While murder has to be premeditated it does not need much premeditation - suppose the burglars were finished, and exiting the building, picking the screwdriver up off the kitchen worktop and stabbing one in the back could certainly open up a charge of murder.

That said, like everyone else, I think that this sounds like self defence - manslaughter at the worst assuming that the buglar was stabbed during a struggle.

In fact the reporting as “held on suspicion of murder” struck me as very odd - wasn’t sure if the police knew something that wasn’t being reported, it was just a question of police SOP or sloppy reporting.

At present there aren’t any other witnesses to events (last I head they hadn’t tracked down the dead man’s accomplice) so it is likely to hinge on whether the homeowner’s version of events is plausible and ties in with any forensic evidence that has been recovered.


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