That’s not right - please take a look at my original comments at post 54. For me it’s quite simply about real examples of any benefits of leaving the EU and / or how the EU adversely affects you on a daily basis i.e. ‘‘When the UK leaves the EU it will be better for me because…’’ or ‘’ The UK being in the EU adversely affects my daily life because…‘’ - fill in the gaps.
I’ll give you something to get us started around …let’s say…Sovereignty:
I am working on full responses to Glenn and Tim but fear that by the time I post them, most members following this discussion will have lost the will to live. Anyway I’m going to sleep on my diatribes…
You asked a question I answered it, no bait. Tim stated that the European workers were undercutting the local workers and added that I must have lived a sheltered life if I’d never seen it happen. I can only comment on what’s written, it’s all there for you to read.
I’ve just looked at your post history and you’re not going to like or agree with whatever I say so why should I expect a few facts to change anything.
I was going to pitch into this thread but was busy at work and find that it has exploded - probably by the time I actually get a response together to some of the points raised they will be even further up the page.
Fortunately Simon has saved me some work as this his post makes one of the points I wanted to about sovereignty.
We never lost sovereignty, or were anything other than a sovereign nation - we did cede some sovereignty voluntarily but had the power to take it back - as has been demonstrated by the vote. Unfortunately what we have done is a little like striking all the matches in the box to make sure that they work.
What of our new found control? Will it alter the lives of the common man?
What did we want control over - our borders for instance. Disregarding the fact that the Leave campaign played on the common man’s inability to differentiate between EU immigrants, non-EU immigrants, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers - we did not “control” the number coming in before the referendum so why should we be more successful after we have pulled out of the EU. Certainly fewer EU citizens will wish to come to work here - and I’m sure that the government will take credit but I suspect that the overall number of migrants will not fall all that much.
Why not? - well, because it has been politically expedient to import labour from “cheaper” sources than the home market. This is especially true of qualified workers because we avoid paying for all or part of their training, but it is also true of the oft-maligned fruit and vegetable pickers. You can argue about the merits of a business model that depends on low paid eastern European labour and you can bemoan “undercutting” of the UK market but farmers often can’t get UK labour at any price (and many do pay at least the “living wage”).
So unless we are prepared to put more into training everyone from lorry drivers to doctors and nurses and insist that anyone on the dole for more than three months takes a potato picking job if there is one (hint: we won’t do either) then we will have to import labour from somewhere.
So acquiring “sovereignty” which we can’t or won’t use is a very pyrrhic victory.
What else? - oh yes, trade. Well, the US has a protectionist president, we’re having a big row with the Russians, China, Japan and others will want to conclude deals with the EU first and any trade deal where we don’t just bend over and take what a larger partner wants (hint: the UK and US or the UK and China are not equal partners in any deal) will take years to negotiate and ratify (what did CETA take, 7 years?).
Again “sovereignty” which we can’t or won’t use.
So I don’t see that we were somehow not a sovereign nation as a member of the EU, we have gained very little by “taking back” the sovereignty that we did cede and the cost is likely to be enormous.
For this (and many other) reasons Brexit in the way we are approaching it is the most bone headed thing any nation has done to itself ever.
Due to the heated nature of this thread I have made it a private group discussion so that it is not visible to the public, if you commented previously you’ll be part of the group. You can also choose to leave the group too if you like.
Please ask if you have any queries
This is not an invitation to start trading insults by the way stay polite as always and remember the rule!
yes Simon you are soooooo agressive that why your posts get so many likes As always I do like reading your well though out arguments and often people find that “aggressive” when you are challenging something they dont believe or it challenges their opinion. Love the fact of and for my main point… followed by your one spelling error, seems that was more important that the rest of it. Keep on posting and will keep on liking.
Cheers Harry - I appreciate that. I often find it really difficult to find the right words and express myself ‘properly’ - drives me mad!!
It’s a shame this discussion has gone a bit off-piste and been ‘relegated’ - it feels like a bit of a waste of time, especially as it started as a survey. I’d prepared some ‘thought out’ responses but think I’ll sleep on them for the time being. See - I’m trying …
It’s quite interesting to note how quiet this thread has become since it has been confined to a smaller audience. I won’t draw any conclusions. Maybe it just happened to run it’s course at the same time.
I think there’s a pretty good response to the survey, approx 180, so the discussion is still open to all those who have been involved since its inception three weeks ago. Last night it began to deteriorate slightly, nothing major, but I decided to move it to a private room so that it’s not off putting to new or potential members (it is a fact that people feel intimidated by these threads and it’s bad business to encourage people to your restaurant and have them leave when they hear shouting at the door). This idea (Room 101) has been floated numerous times previously and this looks like a good opportunity to trial it.
Feedback is needed so thanks for your thoughts, what does everyone else think, do you feel like less inclined to post for a particular reason? This is not my intention so please let me know
I took the banter (heated at times) as an excellent sort of therapy… the world has gone mad in my commune and this is just what I need. I didn’t add anything, but I did chuckle, groan etc etc… and not always at the same person…
I like the idea of moving it away from the public view, once it does seem to become a bit of a tit for tat, hit for spat. I lost the plot in some of the more longer posts… but that’s me… hic…
As you say, there are many people who don’t contribute because they are put off by the sort of posts that are in this thread. For that reason alone it’s sensible to take this thread to a private group.
Everyone can argue as much as they like now and if anyone is offended they can just leave the group. I like it James!
I feel closed down, shut-up, gagged - whatever you choose to call it. I also feel I’ve wasted a lot of time sharing my thoughts. I feel a bit of a fraud as I started the original survey to which members took the time to respond and now its simply disappeared from the wider SFN (and potential SFN) community - like their opinions simply don’t matter. But…as has been pointed out - it’s not all about me!!! :-
Moderation is one thing but overt censorship is entirely another. Why can’t you just address the ‘offenders’ instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water? #hackedoff
PS : a couple of things…
Let me help you - 1. I like a big ‘audience’ otherwise what’s the point and 2. It hadn’t - not by a long straw
As you are the OP I understand your frustrations and take them on board. How about this as a way forward, whilst the thread contains those posts that require attention we keep the thread boxed, once they have been address or edited we can reopen the post to the wider community? Would that be acceptable to you?
Not sure really, I think that ship has sailed and probably best to let it disappear down the Room 101 chute! I find some of the personal attacks fired at me quite wearing. Crikey I must be getting either old or apathetic, or both !!
Yes James - I recapped at around post 88. But hey I’m probably being over sensitive and need to grow a thicker skin - two more development areas suggested to me recently :-)…
stay polite as always and remember the rule!
As always I do like reading your well though out arguments and often people find that “aggressive” when you are challenging something they dont believe or it challenges their opinion. Love the fact of and for my main point… followed by your one spelling error, seems that was more important that the rest of it. Keep on posting and will keep on liking.
