I live alone for the main part of the year Jane and I’m just cautious that’s all…
Here’s me and one of my daughters just to disprove a previous unfounded accusation levelled against me that I am an AI bot 
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Wel, I recognise that bit of road 
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And I would agree Tom and I value truth and transparency and also I ultimately value the rights to free speech and feel I have a right to listen to whatever I want to listen to and make up my own mind…
I am trying to discover why the anti vaccine movement is being associated with “far right extremists”…
Edited to add that I vehemently disagree that The Highwire is “one blokes outlet for peddling unsubstantiated claims for clicks”
The Highwire and ICAN are supported by donations…not unlike many news outlets in current times…
I would rather donate what little I can (no pun intended…) to open discussion and informed consent and an end to surpression…
Helen I know how you feel about being mistaken for a bot - when I recently spent some time debating on a ‘vaccine victims’ group (asking questions, not taking the mick, trying to be nice) I ended up getting accused, I kid you not, of being part of a secret part of the army which covertly collects information on people who have ‘woken up’ to the vaccine threat in order to better target propaganda!
Bigtree received a $232,000 salary in 2019. Before his YouTube channel got shut down for promoting dangerous lies about vaccines he had around 176,000 subscribers. This would have earned him a lot through YouTube’s monetising system; the more subscribers, the more views, the more money. And how do you get more views and subscribers? By telling people big lies to make them scared, then making out you’re the one telling them the ‘truth’, so they come back to you time and time again.
A bit like Donald Trump really, whose ‘stop the steal’ rally Bigtree spoke at on the day of the Capitol siege. There’s one link to the far right, I won’t go into how the aforementioned online discussion I was in quickly descended into neo Nazi anti-semitism. I have no doubt at all that you’re not far right or antisemitic or anything like that but you have to admit the links between the far right and antivax are there.
Of course informed consent is important. But if you’re listening to Bigtree you’re not being informed, you’re being lied to. He has been shown to have lied about vaccines over and over again.
I haven’t bothered putting the sources for all the things in this post but am happy to provide them if necessary.
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In whose opinion was his channel expressing dangerous lies…???
If you have recently spent time debating on a vaccine victims group without taking the mick then what was the outcome…???
I don’t see why you are singling him out as your adversary…???
There is only one reason The Highwire got shadow banned then banned off YouTube and that’s because they were asking the still unanswered uncomfortable questions…
Would you like the details of the lawsuit…??? Maybe you missed it…
I appreciate that you and many are maybe new to this argument and that for some the outright hostility to the possibility of mandatory use of a yet to be approved EUA vaccine that isn’t a vaccine has caused a certain cognitive dissonance
I hope we can maintain a civilised dialogue in the best interests of our own children and all the worlds children
(I am editing this to include the link about ICAN’s lawsuit over YouTube and Facebook removal of their channels and pages which I forgot to include…)
And all those children who wold have died had they not been vaccinated?
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Agree with everything you say, spouts scare mongering lies and bollocks which has made him a lot of money, I can’t believe people totally fall for it but that’s life,
Like Boris he has people’s blood on his hands over covid and should be held accountable.
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In no particular order, here are the benefits of vaccination -
Not transmitting the virus
Being able to see family without worrying about infecting them
Being able to travel to see family
Being socially responsible
Being able to participate in ‘normal’ life
Being able to go to work
Not dying.
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An extract from the Guardian of the 29th June re an article about Chris Witty being targeted:
‘Last week, Whitty’s deputy, Jonathan Van-Tam, was confronted in the street outside the Ministry of Defence building by an anti-vaccine activist who accused him of poisoning Matt Hancock.’
Just as mad in the UK!
Well the censorship and suppression continues apace…Dr Robert Malone has been banned from Linkd In…his business pays for their premium service…lots of people now leaving Linkd In in protest…Wikipedia being rewritten in front of our eyes…
You can’t get more pro-vaccine than Dr Robert Malone…
Has anyone heard of 12 year old Maddie de Garay yet…??? Her pro vaccine pro science parents signed her up for the Pfizer trial…(unless you believe a 12 year old can give informed consent 
) she has suffered immensely ever since her second dose…(and there are many many more)
Her parents and countless others are asking to be heard and helped…
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Yes, I believe an reasonably mature, intelligent 12 year old girl probably could, but 12 covers a wide range of maturity and intellectual development.
A 12 year old boy, however, I probably wouldn’t trust to choose what ice cream flavour to have.
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Yes bioethics gets messy doesn’t it…??? Especially under an EUA…
A really unfair question I know but from a medical standpoint what could be said or done to help someone like 12 year old Maddie de Garay…???
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It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact. To take one example, his previous claims about the links between vaccines and autism has been widely discredited and debunked. To give an idea of the harm this causes, some areas are now seeing a resurgence of measles among young children due to vaccine hesitancy.
As I mentioned, I ended up getting accused of being a government spy! All I asked were questions like ‘How is that this little bunch of people are right and the scientific consensus, made up of millions of scientists and doctors, is wrong?’ Even without examining the evidence, it seems so immensely unlikely that such a huge conspiracy could be pulled off.
Mostly just because he’s the one we’ve been discussing. And he seems to be the most well known.
They got banned because they made false claims that are a danger to public health. It’s Facebook and YouTube’s responsibility to prevent their sites causing harm to the public my limiting the spread of misinformation. I’m not surprised they sued. The loss of YouTube will have made a huge dent in their revenues.
I can understand opposition to compulsory vaccination. People need accurate information in order to make an informed choice, which is why the spread of this kind of misinformation worries me. I can understand that having a jab is worrying, but it’s worth remembering that all the vaccines (well the four main ones anyway, I dont know about the Chinese and Russian ones) have all gone through extensive trials and the chances of harm are extremely low. While the approval is ‘Emergency use’ in the US as you say, they have been fully approved in Europe. In France over half the adult population have now had one dose. In the UK it’s over 80%. Hopefully enough people will take it up voluntarily so that we never need to make it compulsory. And hopefully this will be quick enough to prevent the virus from mutating into more vaccine resistant strains.
Me too! Online discussions can get a bit hairy but insults and anger get us nowhere.
Thankyou for your reply Tom…I appreciate the time it takes and I have yet to fathom out how to quote a reply and then respond to each point…
Yes I’d agree he is probably amongst the most well known and its why he’s being targeted so heavily and I hope he wins the lawsuit against YouTube and Facebook as I also hope RFK jr wins his defamation lawsuit…we will see…
In tthe meantime can you point me in the direction of any source which shows that Europe is operating under anything other an EUA…??? EUA being an Emergency Use Authorsation meaning not approved and not licenced…or just any documentation anywhere in any country that could show we are not collectively still in clinical trials which breach the Nuremberg Code…???
Yes I absolutely agree that online discussions can get a bit hairy…and that anger and insults get us nowhere…!
With love 
Edited to add that U.K. does appear for now at least to have stopped short at recommendations for under 18s…the possible daily testing of school kids to avoid whole year self isolation still seems like child abuse to me but I guess that’s another bridge…
My pregnant daughter who has just gained her late degree with view to being a teacher and who currently is working as relief at a care agency and a mental health agency has been told she is exempt from “mandatory covid vaccine”…which is one small step I guess towards realising the potential harm that could be caused to her…any other response would have resulted in her quitting anyway…
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I was wrong about this. The vaccines have been given ‘Conditional marketing authorisation’, which is similar to EUA.
Some of the vaccine have been fully approved in some countries, however, for example Moderna in the UK, according to this Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_COVID-19_vaccine_authorizations
According to this article on the British Medical Journal, the median average time for full authorisation is 23 months. In the current crisis this is just too long. EUAs represent the safest possible compromise, significant trial data is needed to reasonably prove safety and efficacy, but longer term trials are not needed. It’s a risk-benefit balance. Can you imagine if we had to wait another 23 months + rollout time, during which the virus continues to spread and mutate, with all the educational, economic, societal, mental and physical health disruption that causes?
Why is this child abuse?
The risks to her and her baby from any of the vaccines are minimal (https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/05/can-you-have-the-covid-19-vaccine-if-youre-pregnant/
She is much more at risk from a Covid infection, especially later in her pregnancy (although overall still low risk): https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/people-at-higher-risk/pregnancy-and-coronavirus/
For me the biggest argument is that it is “uncivil” not to be vaccinated, as said in the media by a frenh medical professional. Part of living in a civil society is doing thing for the common good, for the good of society, whether or not they benefit you personally. e.g I have paid tax all my life of which a large part is for education when I chose not to have children. I obey parking rules when it would be so much more convenient for me personally to park on those double yellows right in front of the shop. I wear a mask to protect others mainly, and I am vaccinated not so much for me not to get ill as I am low risk, but to avoid infecting others and to avoid contributing to a pool of infection where more variants can emerge. People dont seem to get it, or don’t want to…its not about your personal health its about society health.
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“Is this a five-minute argument or the full half-hour?”
There’s a balance to be drawn in the argument, isn’t there?
We know from many years experience that many vaccines and both safe and effective.
We also know there might be problems with the covid vaccines that are still to emerge - after all side-effects have emerged that were not discovered in the clinical trials - and they do only have emergency approval.
But since so many doses have been administered, it is likely that if further adverse effects do emerge, they will be long-term.
Since covid as a serious illness mainly affects the elderly, and the young hardly at all, and since for obvious reasons the elderly are unlikely to suffer unknown long-term vaccination side-effects, the balance of the argument favours vaccination for the elderly, but perhaps not for the young (though we don’t know at what age the balance of risks might change).
I draw 2 conclusions:
- The young should think very carefully, and perhaps wait for more research or experience, before getting vaccinated, and
- Nobody should be coerced, but instead should be given as full information as possible and allowed to make their own risk assessment.
I don’t believe arguing in the abstract that everybody should get vaccinated for the good of others is either logically or ethically sustainable in every individual case (this has been discussed elsewhere on SF - but here’s a simple test: How would you feel if the government suddenly decreed that nobody can have a car because they kill too many other people (through pollution, accidents, etc - actually far more than covid has)?
Those of a philosophical bent might like this comic critique of simplistic ‘greatest benefit for the greatest number’ ethical arguments:
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The simple problem with this approach, as far as I understand it (and I would appreciate being corrected by a more knowledgeable person on this) is that the more people without antibodies there are, the more the virus can spread and mutate into strains that are vaccine resistant and/or more dangerous to young people. That’s why I, as a ‘young’ person saw it not only as my social responsibility to be vaccinated but also as a way of protecting myself in the future.
It seems to me there are three ways to stop the virus spreading:
-
Achieve herd immunity by letting it spread widely, and either let thousands of vulnerable and elderly die or keep them in isolation until it’s over (socially very unacceptable)
-
Lock down hard and restrict all social contact - stay at home orders, school closures etc etc until the virus has more or less died out + close borders firmly so that it can’t be reintroduced from abroad, (socially unacceptable and more or less impossible in the long term)
-
Achieve herd immunity through a widespread vaccination programme, to prevent the virus from spreading.
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The problem with this analogy is that car crashes and pollution aren’t highly contagious. The government does but into place things to prevent accidents and pollution, in the form of mandatory seatbelt wearing and restrictions on highly polluting cars.