I can just imagine the french building inspectors reaction.....
Builder to Client "Don't worry about the noise, you won't even know we are here..."
meaning - the builders WON'T be there !
"Oooh, I don't like the look of that wall..." builder tutting and nodding head...
A bloke not far from me had some hugely sloping bedroom floors (100 mm) thanks to the ancient bent trees that passed for joists. He levelled the existing floors by putting a light weight mixture of chopped straw & lime mortar on top it & chip boarded ? over. It was solid & was tiled over in the bathrooms. I think he bought the straw stuff pre mixed & just added water.
"That'll all have to come down"
*scribbles on clipboard*
In the UK the funders and local authorities look for noise and fire insulation which is very difficult to undertake and of course very expensive. With listed buildings hordes of inspectors come and tell you how to do it and spend the money but they don't worry at ALL about the cost as you are only the guardian and not the owner. If you look at Trip Advisor ratings many customers comment adversely about poor sound insulation.
I know with this particular 18th C manor house, the owners wanted to convert the bedrooms into 3 star hotel bedrooms. The magnificent polished oak floors oozed 'character' but because of their sloping nature they were deemed unsafe for public usage by the building inspectors etc and insurance companies wouldn't have touched the business so the choices were re floor and level up with modern boarding or this 'réagréage'. A pro company did the work and the results were great. Runners had to be fitted at the door ways to prevent damage but that's all. As I said, some parts were tiled and others carpeted.
Yep, we "laid" ours at 3cm ; as it's liquid, it finds its own level so you have to calculate the amount necessary for the given floor space. We poured it out in two goes, as the bathroom is longer than broad, with a halfway bit of pinewood to define the height. Worked really well, no problems up till now, except the middle door tile comingloose due toe-stubbings etc - I have to put a wooden runner along the tile edges...
Thanks Peter, I have just checked out the addresses and will vist the one in Brive tomorrow on our shopping trip.
For wood floors the finishes and maintenance products I use are mainly from the Bona range.
http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/product/bona-mix-fill
OR http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/product/wood-filler-gel
Hi Norman - Sapahabitat have a good reputation and are nationwide. You have branches at Brive & Cahors. Nowt is cheap nowadays but they will do a good job i'm sure. Sounds like you have capriccorn beetle which is going to need something stronger than Xylophene so DON'T attempt it yourself otherwise you will rapidly become an ex-Norman !
I'm sure there are other companiess in the phone book, look under 'Traitement de Bois'
Mixture of beeswax and sawdust may do the trick
David and others in the Brive area - preferably SE of there. Do any of you know of a ccompany that treats serious woodworm in cellars? We noticed the attack in the huge old oak beams. Two carpenters have said we needn't panic, but the beams all need treating (two cellars with a combined area of 70m2). Plus two other dedicated bricoleurs, but non-professionals have said we could do it ourselves, but that it is a long and dirty job, and probably not a good idea for an old fart of 75 who hasn't got a clue (guess who?).
Talking to Gamme Vert the guy there strongly advised against even attempting to do it ourselves as it requires a lot of safety clothing and the treatment fluid can be toxic. Plus if you don't do it right, it would need doing again in a short(ish) while.
Now trying to find people to quote to do the job, and try not to have a heart-attack when we learn the price!
Like others we too have floors that are all over the palce, which doesn't bother me at all - after all the house is about 400 years old for crying out loud and if I'd wanted tiles, I would have bought a modern house. Wife thought otherwise until the experts moved in with prices - and thankfully an honest - 'why are you so worried? Old floors look fine in old houses' Wife disagreed until the quotes came in. We now live with creaking and uneven floors. Being in the same condition myself I have an affinity with these!
Wife remains unconvinced about the floors and me, but as they are both long-standing conditions - tough?
Hilary if you tile down stairs, insulation is almost a must otherwise the ceramic will pull the heat out of the room and cause an uncomfortable cold below the knee and in the foot whilst you sit. Whilst David adds caution several of the techniques described are quite old and are about contolling a leak whereas it is possible to produce water proof surroundings, partly because they have been doing this in Europe longer.
Look at the two links below.
http://www.mapei.com/public/GB/pdf/ShowerWaterproofing.pdf
And as mentioned before the Wedi system.
We now have polymer adhesives which can stop live leaks rather than the over reliance on silicon's that break down after a while. A Dutch lady introduced me to a system they use quite widely which has also migrated into France. Timber floor is removed and replaced with a corregated floor made from galvanised steel sheets which are filled with a polymer cement similar to the ragreage which is a leveling compound for the want of a better word and then tiled on.
Thanks to all,
I'll certainly look this stuff up on l'internet....
Any recommendations for the hole filling woodpolish/paste for the treated upstairs floors ?
I'e had experience of the réagréage product in an old Maison de Maitre where I worked which was converted into a hotel. The old wooden floors were deemed 'unsuitable' and even dangerous because of them not being suitably level. A firm came in and levelled the floors and the finished surface was either tiled or carpeted. It worked well with no cracking etc. The depth of the réagréage was between 2 - 7cm.
Thank you David, for your very comprehensive 'low down' on this.
I dont intend to attempt tiling over any upstairs floors...the floors there are generally ok (probably need treating for woodworm) with one fragile board that is brittle and will have to come out....Apart from this I need to find a floor paste filler/polish of some sort (do you know of anything available at the Brico ?) to fill the grain of the wood and seal any gaps...
I would like to tile most of the ground floor which is quite a large area.
During the great freeze of about three/four years ago (temperatures in my little street, close to the Dordogne reached -17 degrees for 15 consecutive days).... whilst I was not in residence, the water in the pipes froze and fractured a seam in the pipe in the front bedroom and cracked open the cistern of the upstairs toilet.
The resulting water trickled down (over several weeks) through the hallway ceiling (revealing the old construction using pinned tiled pieces....amazing)......and unfortunately saturating what was a wooden floor in good condition....as well as an old walnut Breton buffet (part of a suite of furniture bought for a song from the Broccante next door) I was very upset about this, but it will be restored... However, that floor and the house has dried out successfully, but I am now left with a wooden floor with ripples in it. Is the solution simply to hire a floor sander ...or should I be doing some thing else?
The floor in the main room is another problem. This didn't get wet, but originally that room was two. The partition was taken down at some point by the previous owner but there is a gap in the flooring which was never replaced properly...there is just a piece of timber lying in the gap - I have stopped that being a tripping hazard by placing a large rug over it.
This floor has some areas of good timber (actually seems to be a mixture from one room to the other) but at one end of the room where I have what they describe as a 'Cuisine American' (with the same old vinyl that graces the bathroom) - and close to an external door it is very spongey (& I suspect rotten).
Other areas have problems too. Sections near to the outside walls appear to be travelling outwards towards the skirting boards and a few centimetre wide gaps have opened up...suggesting that the nails have rusted away and that they are no longer secured to any floor joists.
I have been thinking that I would be better off tiling over all this (after treating the floor and replacing rotten areas ) and the Fermacell option appealed to me because it would insulate the floor very well, being a granular layer(with air spaces) and a top layer. I did think that putting in a warm wire type of underfloor heating, solar powered would be a good thing.
you can find it in googling "ragréage de chappe liquide", I dunno what that is in English :)
Thanks for this Ian,
It might be somehing that I could use in the downstairs bathroom, which has some quite nice modern fittings not not very expertly installed & finished....and an old vinyl, imitation tile floor (hiding some very springy pockets which I suspect are rotting...
Tiling has in fact been carried out on timber sub floors for a very long time indeed. However in Victorian times tiles (usually encaustic) were laid on screeds on boards on timber sub floors with sturdy joists at closer centres than normal. Centres in the UK were traditionally 400mm for normal timber floors but closer where tiling is to be carried out. That made for a stiff floor but the structural thickness was great. Many examples of encaustic tiled floors exist perfectly happily after 150 years.
Bear in mind that joists in France are quite flimsy, over large spans and at wide centres. That makes for a very springy floor. As noted by others the structural condition including the possibilty of termites etc needs to be considered.
There are quite a few board products on the market over which you can tile. The product needs to be dimensionally stable, ideally rot proof especially in wet areas. There should be expansion joints at all edges and in large bays.
I have done tiled floors over timber substructures, even stone floors, even with underfloor heating. However the cost and the complexity of structure was enormous. You can have wet underfloor heating or electric. Just imagine the problems however if there is a failure of any sort. You will be looking at major structural works, which may compromise other features in an old building. We used to avoid underfloor heating like the plague but it has become a fad, with clients insisting on it, However if there is a problem they will try to have a pop at the architect who advised against it.
My recommendation is avoid tiling on timber subfloors other than in small areas like bathrooms and WCs. Showers are notorious for failure as everybody insists on having high pressure systems which dump gallons of water onto a small area which may be flexing. In high end projects we used to build a marine ply box and line it internally with hand applied fibreglass before applying tiling or marble. In some cases we even lead lined under showers with catch trays which were separately drained to the waste system. You are looking at lots of money for that.