To obtain a French Tax Number swiftly, for submission to HMRC via the dual taxation forms

Banking & Financial Tax & Social charges
1

Hi
I have noticed a lot of references along the lines of “The France Individual form cannot be submitted before you make your first french tax declaration”.

My experience is that has now changed!

My HMRC Form France Individual was completed by our local Bureau des Impots within 2 months of our stated date of committing to residence in France, this year. It was accepted by HMRC in July 2019.

After several false starts at the instigation of the local Bureau, I gave them ‘FORMULAIRE N°2043-SD
Demande de numéro fiscal et de taux personnalisé de prélèvement à la source’

The Bureau accepted and processed form 2043, and gave us the necessary ‘numéro fiscal’. This is despite their inability to collect tax at source (prélèvement à la source) from us, because all our income is from the UK. So our first tax declaration in France is on paper in May 2020.

This then allowed us to complete the HMRC form France - Individual and get it stamped, signed, returned, and accepted by HMRC.

The first ‘specialist’ I saw at our local Bureau des Impots asked us to complete a formulaire 2042 for the 2018 tax year in order to calculate our tax liability for the current 2019 tax year. This took work. Annoyingly as soon as the next ‘specialist’ saw our “arrival date” as 2019 in the change of address box on the first page of 2042/2018 it was then rejected. That was the point at which I found and provided the 2043 form instead, which was accepted.

Equally HMRC rejected form “P85” as a means of getting any tax refund this 2019/2020 year. They stated that “you cannot use this form to claim a tax refund because you pay tax through Self Assessment”, ie wait till April 2020!

After extensive discussions with senior specialist technical staff at HMRC they have confirmed that the key form to get a tax refund this year is the dual taxation form France - Individual. However that form does not necessarily contain sufficient room in Box C2 to state each pension pot. The form generally states that you need to put additional information on a separate sheet i.e. ‘give full details on a separate sheet’. I gave full details of all pensions and draw downs on a separate sheet. I was told this was correct following the wait for it to be processed. However I have since been told to provide a second form France - Individual duly stamped by the Bureau des Impots using box C2 to detail the other pension draw downs for which I wish a UK tax refund. If you cannot fit enough information into a specific box on the France Individual form, I would now recommend completing as many forms as necessary to do so, and get them all stamped and processed at once!

I have to say that despite the occasional confusion, the staff at our local Bureau des Impots have been unfailingly actively helpful. So, for example, after an extensive exchange of emails, I have a predictive calculation from them of the tax I can expect to pay, and the basis for calculation of all the allowances etc for our submission in May 2020.

In contrast I am deeply frustrated at the extended run arounds (about 2 months to process each form successively), and regular misinformation to which I have been subjected by supposed ‘technical experts’ within HMRC.

2

Many, many years ago… we were sent packing from our local Tax Office… and told (politely) to come back when you have been in France for a year…(more or less the gist of it). :upside_down_face:

So, if nowadays you are able to get the form stamped swiftly (and with style) :wink: things obviously have changed a great deal.

Interesting to hear how you are getting on…

3

Yes, we got our France individual form/ tax number pretty quickly after arriving. I can’t now remember why we needed it as now years ago, but it was before we submitted our first French tax return. I thi k this is yet a other thing where there is quite a bit of variation between areas.

4

Glad to hear someone else has had a very positive experience of the French tax office. My local office couldn’t have been more helpful - sitting down to help me complete the forms, and checking them with me afterwards.

5

:blush: Lest anyone think that my remark about being sent packing - was a dig at the Tax Folk… let me assure you that this is not the case. :relaxed:

When folk have any sort of Tax difficulty… one of the things I strongly advise it to go and talk face-to-face… simply because the Tax Folk are there to help and they do so with humour and patience in my own experience.

Also, I have witnessed some incidents, where Brits have shown poor/bad manners and the long-suffering Tax Folk have struggled on, doing their best to help in difficult circumstances.

I am now on first name terms with the lady who “deals with” our Commune and dread the day she retires. We are petitioning to keep her Tax Office open and the staff available to help us… not everything can be done on-line/telephone/email. Personal contact is essential in certain circumstances.

6

Not always the case.
For the most part, my dealings with the local tax have passed without too much difficulty, but when I closed the business, two individuals openly ignored my situation, & even laughed whilst I explained the problems I’d had re. my accountant, & her negligence (sp.)
Later that year, after I’d become employed, they lost 3 cheques for my TF…& despite admitting that THEY had lost them, it was made clear that I’d never be able to pay monthly, as the late payments would be seen as my fault.

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Sadly, this sort of thing can happen in every walk of life… worldwide… but, thankfully, the good folk greatly outweigh the baddies…:relaxed:

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True…I’m sure this happens everywhere.

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I went to submit the 2043 form online, but of course, you need a numéro fiscaI to open an online account So, I submitted a request to open an online account without a numéro fiscal. That request is lost in the ether.

The queues are large at our local tax office in Marseille. Sigh Here we go again.

My Dutch based Neo bank is about to shut my account because I haven’t given my NF…

Whine whine whine

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Any idea how long the tax office takes to generate a NF after submission of the 2043?

11

I’m confused. Have you submitted an income declaration in France yet/ever? If so, how come you don’t have a tax number?
If you haven’t, I doubt they can issue a tax number. Until you have paid tax you are not a taxpayer. You are a potential future taxpayer but that’s not the same thing.
Nor could you open an online account if you’ve had no dealings yet with the fisc. Opening an online account basically means getting online access to all your démarches with the tax office. If you’ve never submitted a declaration there will be no démarches for you to access.
All you can do is explain this to your Dutch bank and tell them you will have an NF by July or thereabouts. Surely your bank must have encountered this before…
EDIT - unless you are employed here and already paying tax at source??

12

Tim… aren’t you being employed by a company outside France… or have I mixed you up with someone else… ??? yep, I remember, I’m mistaken… you came to France for a job in Marseille last June ??? what happened to that??? did they get you into the system

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In 2019, I have earned a salary in the UK for several months, rental income in the UK, a salary in France for several months (paying tax at source) and also as a micro-entrepreneur…

The Dutch bank didn’t like my explanations. You are right, you would think they would see this often.

14

Oh my… a bit of a pickle… :thinking: :upside_down_face: not at all sure the Dutch do see this sort of thing too often though…

@anon27586881 will hopefully know what you need to do…

15

If your employer is paying tax at source for you, have you asked if they have a TIN number for you?

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16

I think the best route to pursue here, is the employment where you paid tax at source.
If you have actually paid tax, they must have a record of you and what tax you’ve paid, and presumably they have already attributed you a number.
Ask your employer? There is no NF on your payslip I suppose, or you would have spotted it… and you are 100% sure you did pay income tax, in and amongst the many payroll deductions for social security and whatever?

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Hi. Re the form 2043… I suspect each tax office is individual. I submitted the form 2043 on paper by visiting the Bureau… (I had received contradictory and confusing info, so it was one of several duly completed forms I took in. When they spurned the others, I tabled 2043, and it was accepted.)
It was submitted about 7th May, and I received the tax number about a week later, and was then able to open the espace online.
Because all our income is from the UK currently, we will be paying our tax on it next May.

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18

I also thought that there must be a number somewhere if my employer was paying my tax. I scoured my bulletin de salaire, but no luck. Searching online along the same line, just kept returning the classic ‘wait for my first avis d’imposition’.

I will chase the DRH from my old work to see if their accountant has a number.

If not, I will take a good book and wait at the local office.

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19

Hi,
I couldn’t access the page you’d provided. It stated that it no longer existed… So, I looked for another way to access the formulaire 2043 and found this link:
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/formulaire/2043-sd/demande-de-numero-fiscal-et-de-taux-personnalise-de-prelevement-la-source

20

Yes, I found the same.

The DRH has come back and said that they pay tax via the social security number, but that the tax office call centre will give you the FN over the phone. So, that is the next step!