Has anyone had to fill in a France Form Individual DT recently ? If you look on the HMRC website, the current form is in English only, no French translation. A note at the bottom of the page states that the French version is ‘no longer required’ as of Feb 2020. Having sent one to my local Impots, they are asking for the French version, which they obviously think is required. Anyone have a copy of the earlier dual language form ?
This is the old form. You could use it as an aid to translation to help the Impots. Or you could just use it and hope HMRC accept it?
http://blogs.droitissimo.com/sites/default/files/formulaires/france-individual_rembt_impots_britanique_resident_france.pdf
I’ve just found this from March 2020 on another forum from someone who had a similar query:
I rang HMRC this morning on the off chance that there might be someone on duty on Saturday morning, and indeed there was.
The form has been updated (Jan 2020) and is now simpler and shorter, but it is all in English. The notes (separate pdf) refer only to the new form.
The old form is still acceptable. The suggestion from the helpline is to use the new form but to take a copy of the old one along to the local tax office; if there is a problem, for example they refuse to recognise the new one, you can fill in the old version (whilst politely suggesting that they contact HMRC, which obviously they’ll be happy to do… I don’t think!).
So, a bit more work but there’s only a few boxes to complete for my particular claim, it’s just the amount of paper required that’s annoying.
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Agreed. Last month, the local tax office in Seine Maritime were more than happy to have the ‘old’ bi-lingual version to hand purely as an aid to their understanding, whilst they cheerfully stamped and signed the ‘new’ English only version. They were also, very sportingly, about to sign and stamp the old one too, for good measure, which had no entries on it at all (!)
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Perhaps you could scan your “oldstyle” one and make it available to others… 
it could become “the guide”… !!
What a good idea.
Unfortunately my only copy is now residing in the Centre des Impôts, as the lady who was busy stamping it wanted to keep it for her and her colleagues future guidance…
Or you could use the copy I posted in the link above!!
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@anon37731102 you are a star… must confess I didn’t look too closely at the link you posted as the query doesn’t affect me.
But… now all is revealed… I’ve taken a look (honest injun)… and can report that Page 10 is the beginning of the French (just to prove I have looked… ) 
French Form Individual Dual Taxation:
http://blogs.droitissimo.com/sites/default/files/formulaires/france-individual_rembt_impots_britanique_resident_france.pdf
Thanks @anon37731102 , I’ve now filled in the old forms and sent them off. I asked for an in person meeting to get this sorted, but for some reason they said it couldn’t be done in person, and I’ve had to scan each page and send it to them via my impots account. Go figure 
Hello,
can you tell me where on my impots account i can transmit the forms mentioned in this discussion.
thanks
I would personally recommend setting up a (face to face) meeting with the Impôts, to explain the point of the form (which is entirely in English!) as they’re likely to be unfamiliar with it. Alternatively you could post it to them with a cover letter. My local office had not seen this form, and were happy to enough to sign once they understood the need for a French residence certificate.
Personally I think it might be regarded by them as being a bit cheeky to expect them to print something off (eg if sent by the Impôts secure message facility) then sign and stamp it and to return the hard copy to you. You can arrange a meeting with your local impot via your espace particulier in the Impôts site (if you’ve set up your ‘account’), though I imagine they will be pretty busy for the next few weeks with tax returns…
Once signed and stamped, you can then send it yourself to HMRC (the Impôts won’t do that, and you’ll want a copy for yourself presumably).
And if you can’t get a RDV with your centre d’impôts right now during their manic period try going to your nearest France Services. They may be able to facilitate this for you.
Point taken, would have used it as a last resort but interested in the principle.
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Then comes the hard bit… getting HMRC to properly process your signed and stamped claim form.
In my case, HMRC have now taken over a year, so far, to process my signed and stamped form tax treaty form DT1, having utterly failed - to date- to take into account that… I was making a tax treaty claim (for a uk pension payment). At first they understood the claim, and prepared to refund me the tax withheld.Then at the last minute, they undertook a ‘security check’ ,and reversed themselves…They even sent me a letter, telling me off for making an error on my tax return, by ‘omitting to declare the pension payment’ - and deciding to tax me in full on it.
The pension payment was (of course) fully and correctly disclosed (as being taxable only in France, as a French resident) on the UK tax return. What worries me is that the office dealing with what should be a fairly straightforward tax treaty claim describes itself as ‘Complex and Agent cases’. God help them - and the unlucky taxpayers - if they come across a genuinely complex tax situation.
Good luck with your own case…
Just a thought as HMRC position sounds terrible and I’m sure you’re well on top of this - you are sure it is one of the France taxable pensions - there have been several people posting on e.g. NHS pensions with differing opinions.
And having checked your ground, another thought… have you raised an official complaint - there are three tiers - and / or or an appeal on the decision?, again there are several tiers, they are independent tribunals with special members sitting. You and HMRC get to present your case… they decide.
And when all is resolved in your favour, make sure you get the interest - they should be made to pay penalties!
PS Out of the seeming blue, HMRC issued a coding notice allocating my tax code to my France taxable NHS pension last week - I rung up and after 55 minutes waiting to be answered was put through immediately to a DTT person, who took just 5 minutes to say, yes I see you have a DTT form lodged, I’ll cancel the code, I’ve cancelled the code. Which I’m hoping has happened.
Hi
I concur. HMRC seldom deal with our situations and at different levels may well unintentionally get it wrong
The following is a slightly cynical interpretation based on my experience of dealing with soi-disant stressed and over worked HMRC staff (quango employees or civil servants). They have always in my experience been well meaning and ultra polite. I would not want their call centre reactive job.
I have always got the best results by ringing HMRC (faster using the overseas number)… After submitting all the correct forms and waiting a couple of months for them to register (but not process) the paperwork. i.e. they have not read or digitised the forms or letters, just recorded their arrival, and maybe scanned them unread.
The phonecall usually takes about an hour or so and a damp towel to remain ultra polite while explaining the issue several times in an escalation through the hierarchy to finally reach and speak to a specialist (tax technician). I am grateful that ringing internationally via an orange landline is not so expensive.
The technician has always been well informed, but made arbitrary decisions that have at times been reversed by another. The cumulative process has ended up gradually getting to an improvement, but it’s taken months and patience.
It is mission critical to express the problem in such a way only a tax technician specialist can resolve it.
Bon Courage
Good challenge. It’s a private sector scheme.
I think that if my latest, polite technical appeal letter gets nowhere, I will first of all request a ‘statutory review’ by an “independent” (sic) experienced case worker. I’d hope that any treaty specialist looking at this would conclude in about 5 minutes that it’s open and shut - non resident in UK, resident in France, all paperwork including returns submitted consistent with this position. I’d hope not to have to go down the tribunal route, but I will if necessary.
What I’ve taken away from your and @JoCo helpful comments is the value of the phone call. I did call the number on the DT1 form in October, but it took 29 minutes (from France) from being first answered to actually speaking to a human, and it was clear they were not in a specialist team. I think maybe I should have been more insistent on being passed to one, though they refused when I requested the call to be passed to a treaty specialist.
What is even more galling is that they arbitrarily cancelled an NT code (for the pension). I immediately suspended receipt of any further amounts from this pension, as I didn’t want to add to the growing pile of UK tax that is being withheld that will only have to be reclaimed, yet again, no doubt taking months. In other words, I have had no income for over a year, bar a tiny amount of interest.
Irony alert…I used to advise on expatriate tax for a Big Four firm, specialising in tax treaties, particularly the UK/France one, so it’s really a professional insult to be told by an HMRC agent that I’ve made an error on my return,(with a valid treaty claim!) and should take more care with my returns in future. They are the ones who have made a (fundamental technical) error…
I’m grateful to you both, and am reassured that it’s not just me being mucked around by HMRC agents (who I agree are always polite etc).
@larkswood12 As a brief follow up, you and I were exchanging comments on the criteria for claiming the special French tax treatment for a pension lump sum, some time back.
After a lot of research/thought, I am not going to take the risk with one particular UK pension plan, as I already took a single distribution before coming to France, as a UK tax free amount. I don’t think in good conscience I qualify for the favourable 6.75% rate if I take the balance as a lump sum when French resident, even though others incl on SF, might have do so…The risks of eye watering tax rates applying if the claim is not sustained is too great. I don’t believe in ‘try-on’ claims as a matter of principle.
Instead I will spread the pension plan amounts over several years, with otherwise unused lower rate bands and allowances, and believe I can get to an effective tax rate of 16%, without any obvious risk.Thanks for supplying some of the technical background papers…
Excellent advice, which I will follow when I next speak to HMRC…
Ah. I thought you were a tax specialist George1. But I was beginning to doubt my guess as if you were, I couldn’t see how you were getting into this mess with HMRC.
Now I know that if even you are getting into this bother with HMRC , none of us have any chance.
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George1 you can withdraw at least £30,000 each - you and your wife each - without UK tax being deducted at the point of withdrawal… Just use the small pots rule. You can do 3 whole pot withdrawals of max £10,000 per pot, each, in your lifetime tax free. (not even the usual default 20%)
You will have to account for them on the net 6.75% basis to France when you do your tax return the flowing year. But unlike other withdrawals if you tell your provider you’re doing small pot withdrawals (and assuming your provider isn’t someone like Vanguard or a small provider who might say they don’t do small pots admin)the provider is not required by HMRC to deduct and shouldn’t.
(You’ll have to make the pots of the right size by transfers in to optimise if you don’t happen to have 3*10,000£ pots already lying around. Personally I’d build an existing smaller pot up to £10k but if I had anything larger would create a new one rather than reduce back to £10k just in case of complications with a previous higher value tidemark that pot had reached… but prob not necessary I’d just feel it safer.)
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