To obtain a French Tax Number swiftly, for submission to HMRC via the dual taxation forms

[larkswood12]

@George1

they refused when I requested the call to be passed to a treaty specialist.

I think that mirrors @JoCo 's comment to express the request in some way they have no option - I just asked the ‘receptionist’ to cancel the tax code on the pension, as it had a DTT form lodged against the pension - she said immediately, I can’t do that I have to transfer you to the specialist!

@George1

you and I were exchanging comments on the criteria for claiming the special French tax treatment for a pension lump sum… I don’t believe in ‘try-on’ claims…

Ah, apologies if you thought I was suggesting you ‘go it alone’ - I would or should have suggested you ask a tax inspector if you can, quoting the tax bulletin and if necessary running past the ‘circumstances’ and get it in writing, as there is provision for lump sum tax treatment following an 'early redemption of capital, the example cited in the tax bulletin I think was Swiss pensions.

And of course, opting for the phased withdrawal approach (extra 10% tax) does allow you to keep the remaining funds invested over the years - otherwise presumably you would pay French tax on the returns on the investment once withdrawn from the pension.

I presume you have also ruled out an annuity purchase, as you worked in the area you will know all the options for these!

The tax bulletin paragraph is 140 - (google translation given here, of course, as ever pursue the actual bulletin text if you are still interested…)

Case of early redemptions: Capital payments made following early redemptions of all or part of retirement savings in accordance with the regulations in force in the country considered may benefit from the levy if they are not exempt (BOI- RSA-PENS-20-10) and if a single payment is made in respect of the event causing the early release. In addition, these payments do not call into question the possibility of benefiting from the levy for subsequent payments in the event of a new early release or upon retirement. This is particularly the case for the release of all or part of the rights for the acquisition of the main residence provided for by certain foreign pension plans, which may benefit from the levy, all other conditions being met, and does not prevent the possibility of benefit from the levy again for the future. Likewise, a taxpayer who has liquidated part of his tax-free rights in advance pursuant to the provisions of the third to seventh paragraphs of Article L. 132-23 of the Insurance Code may subsequently under the same contract or pension plan, benefit from the discharge.
150 For each event enabling a buy-back, only one payment must be made. Thus, the early redemption of the retirement capital authorized by a foreign regulation from a certain age, without other conditions and at any time, can not benefit from the deduction, all other conditions being met, only if a single redemption is carried out relating to all rights. It does not apply if the buy-back is made in the form of partial installments spread over time.

Examples: a) A taxpayer requests the liquidation of all of his retirement rights in the form of capital under two separate additional pension plans. He can opt independently for the 7.5% levy for the taxation of the paid-up capital under one, the other or both pension plans. b) In January 2011, a taxpayer asked the Swiss complementary retirement institution (2nd pillar), for the purchase of his main residence, the advance payment of his retirement capital up to € 100,000. When he retires in September 2012, he receives the balance of his rights acquired in this pension plan in the form of capital, ie € 60,000. As soon as the payment for the principal residence and the payment for retirement are made for two separate events and each of the payments is not split, the taxpayer can request the benefit of the levy for each payment .

[George1]

@KarenLot

Now I know that if even you are getting into this bother with HMRC , none of us have any chance.

It does worry me that there may well be others who experience similar, somewhat arbitrary decisions from HMRC agents, and who are put in a stressful situation of not knowing how best to challenge them. I wonder if HMRC junior staff are not being properly trained and/or their work is not being adequately reviewed. I would not expect letters like the one I received to have been issued, after a technical review by more experienced HMRC staff.

One thing that has really surprised me coming to France has been the amount of time I have had to spend dealing with (my fairly uncomplicated) UK tax issues, which I thought I was largely leaving behind! French tax issues have worked smoothly by contrast.

[George1]

@larkswood12

apologies if you thought I was suggesting you ‘go it alone’ - I would or should have suggested you ask a tax inspector

My apologies in turn to you if it read that way. I absolutely wasn’t thinking that at all.

I had started to draft a request for an advance ruling from the Impôts, regarding whether they would grant me the special 6.75% tax rate for a pension lump sum, given I’d already taken a distribution when in the UK. Then I thought - how can I in good conscience write such a request when I can’t even persuade myself that, on my facts, this claim has merit. That’s what I meant that I didn’t favour (either for me, or once upon a time for clients) "go it alone/try on claims’ ie where the specific facts don’t support the claim. Undoubtedly there will be others whose circumstances do permit credible claims…

[George1]

Brief follow up to the below…

@George1

In my case, HMRC have now taken over a year, so far, to process my signed and stamped form tax treaty form DT1, having utterly failed - to date- to take into account that… I was making a tax treaty claim (for a uk pension payment). At first they understood the claim, and prepared to refund me the tax withheld.Then at the last minute, they undertook a ‘security check’ ,and reversed themselves…They even sent me a letter, telling me off for making an error on my tax return, by ‘omitting to declare the pension payment’ - and deciding to tax me in full on it.

HMRC have - finally - agreed to refund me tax withheld in March 2022 (!) from my UK pension…No apology or 'oops forthcoming. They have utterly mishandled a straightforward tax treaty refund claim. I don’t use the word incompetent lightly, as I respect HMRC, and understand the pressures HMRC staff are currently under.However I’m afraid this was sheer technical incompetence in this case. It should not have happened. I hope others are not similarly affected.

[larkswood12]

Result! I’m pleased you got that, congratulations. Hope Mme’s DT1 will go through more smoothly.

[George1]

@JoCo

have always got the best results by ringing HMRC (faster using the overseas number)… After submitting all the correct forms and waiting a couple of months for them to register (but not process) the paperwork. i.e. they have not read or digitised the forms or letters, just recorded their arrival, and maybe scanned them unread.
The phonecall usually takes about an hour or so and a damp towel to remain ultra polite while explaining the issue several times in an escalation through the hierarchy to finally reach and speak to a specialist (tax technician

Very practical, helpful advice.

@JoCo

t is mission critical to express the problem in such a way only a tax technician specialist can resolve it.
Bon Courage

I called HMRC yesterday to try and obtain an NT code, having waited for a couple of months after submitting Form France Individual. After the usual 30 minutes of waiting, when eventually answered, I immediately asked to speak to a tax technician, given this was a tax treaty claim/NT code/refund. It was like Open Sesame at the mention of tax technician. One was immediately whistled up. He did go through the motions of saying they weren’t dealing with post from November and December yet (!). However whilst he was trying to give me an idea of when they might review the Nov/Dec post, he was evidently looking at the form. He then said, as I’m on the phone, he will process it today and issue an NT code.

He pointed out that many people misread one key question on the form which asks when you will pay tax on the income being reported on the form. I had estimated I would pay tax this autumn for the new source of income that arose in 2023. He said that the question was poorly worded and what they meant to ask was - are you French resident and paying tax as a resident (yes, in my case).

The NT code was issued two hours later. I will drawdown a nominal £100 when the code is received by Standard Life, to prompt a refund of all tax withheld, as the refund can’t otherwise be officially made until July (when hmrc receive P60 information from SL).

Thank you @JoCo for the tip off on calling and asking to speak to a ‘tax technician’, it made the process much more effective.