@anon37731102 you are a star… must confess I didn’t look too closely at the link you posted as the query doesn’t affect me.
But… now all is revealed… I’ve taken a look (honest injun)… and can report that Page 10 is the beginning of the French (just to prove I have looked… ) 
French Form Individual Dual Taxation:
http://blogs.droitissimo.com/sites/default/files/formulaires/france-individual_rembt_impots_britanique_resident_france.pdf
Thanks @anon37731102 , I’ve now filled in the old forms and sent them off. I asked for an in person meeting to get this sorted, but for some reason they said it couldn’t be done in person, and I’ve had to scan each page and send it to them via my impots account. Go figure 
Hello,
can you tell me where on my impots account i can transmit the forms mentioned in this discussion.
thanks
I would personally recommend setting up a (face to face) meeting with the Impôts, to explain the point of the form (which is entirely in English!) as they’re likely to be unfamiliar with it. Alternatively you could post it to them with a cover letter. My local office had not seen this form, and were happy to enough to sign once they understood the need for a French residence certificate.
Personally I think it might be regarded by them as being a bit cheeky to expect them to print something off (eg if sent by the Impôts secure message facility) then sign and stamp it and to return the hard copy to you. You can arrange a meeting with your local impot via your espace particulier in the Impôts site (if you’ve set up your ‘account’), though I imagine they will be pretty busy for the next few weeks with tax returns…
Once signed and stamped, you can then send it yourself to HMRC (the Impôts won’t do that, and you’ll want a copy for yourself presumably).
And if you can’t get a RDV with your centre d’impôts right now during their manic period try going to your nearest France Services. They may be able to facilitate this for you.
Point taken, would have used it as a last resort but interested in the principle.
Then comes the hard bit… getting HMRC to properly process your signed and stamped claim form.
In my case, HMRC have now taken over a year, so far, to process my signed and stamped form tax treaty form DT1, having utterly failed - to date- to take into account that… I was making a tax treaty claim (for a uk pension payment). At first they understood the claim, and prepared to refund me the tax withheld.Then at the last minute, they undertook a ‘security check’ ,and reversed themselves…They even sent me a letter, telling me off for making an error on my tax return, by ‘omitting to declare the pension payment’ - and deciding to tax me in full on it.
The pension payment was (of course) fully and correctly disclosed (as being taxable only in France, as a French resident) on the UK tax return. What worries me is that the office dealing with what should be a fairly straightforward tax treaty claim describes itself as ‘Complex and Agent cases’. God help them - and the unlucky taxpayers - if they come across a genuinely complex tax situation.
Good luck with your own case…
Just a thought as HMRC position sounds terrible and I’m sure you’re well on top of this - you are sure it is one of the France taxable pensions - there have been several people posting on e.g. NHS pensions with differing opinions.
And having checked your ground, another thought… have you raised an official complaint - there are three tiers - and / or or an appeal on the decision?, again there are several tiers, they are independent tribunals with special members sitting. You and HMRC get to present your case… they decide.
And when all is resolved in your favour, make sure you get the interest - they should be made to pay penalties!
PS Out of the seeming blue, HMRC issued a coding notice allocating my tax code to my France taxable NHS pension last week - I rung up and after 55 minutes waiting to be answered was put through immediately to a DTT person, who took just 5 minutes to say, yes I see you have a DTT form lodged, I’ll cancel the code, I’ve cancelled the code. Which I’m hoping has happened.
Hi
I concur. HMRC seldom deal with our situations and at different levels may well unintentionally get it wrong
The following is a slightly cynical interpretation based on my experience of dealing with soi-disant stressed and over worked HMRC staff (quango employees or civil servants). They have always in my experience been well meaning and ultra polite. I would not want their call centre reactive job.
I have always got the best results by ringing HMRC (faster using the overseas number)… After submitting all the correct forms and waiting a couple of months for them to register (but not process) the paperwork. i.e. they have not read or digitised the forms or letters, just recorded their arrival, and maybe scanned them unread.
The phonecall usually takes about an hour or so and a damp towel to remain ultra polite while explaining the issue several times in an escalation through the hierarchy to finally reach and speak to a specialist (tax technician). I am grateful that ringing internationally via an orange landline is not so expensive.
The technician has always been well informed, but made arbitrary decisions that have at times been reversed by another. The cumulative process has ended up gradually getting to an improvement, but it’s taken months and patience.
It is mission critical to express the problem in such a way only a tax technician specialist can resolve it.
Bon Courage
Good challenge. It’s a private sector scheme.
I think that if my latest, polite technical appeal letter gets nowhere, I will first of all request a ‘statutory review’ by an “independent” (sic) experienced case worker. I’d hope that any treaty specialist looking at this would conclude in about 5 minutes that it’s open and shut - non resident in UK, resident in France, all paperwork including returns submitted consistent with this position. I’d hope not to have to go down the tribunal route, but I will if necessary.
What I’ve taken away from your and @JoCo helpful comments is the value of the phone call. I did call the number on the DT1 form in October, but it took 29 minutes (from France) from being first answered to actually speaking to a human, and it was clear they were not in a specialist team. I think maybe I should have been more insistent on being passed to one, though they refused when I requested the call to be passed to a treaty specialist.
What is even more galling is that they arbitrarily cancelled an NT code (for the pension). I immediately suspended receipt of any further amounts from this pension, as I didn’t want to add to the growing pile of UK tax that is being withheld that will only have to be reclaimed, yet again, no doubt taking months. In other words, I have had no income for over a year, bar a tiny amount of interest.
Irony alert…I used to advise on expatriate tax for a Big Four firm, specialising in tax treaties, particularly the UK/France one, so it’s really a professional insult to be told by an HMRC agent that I’ve made an error on my return,(with a valid treaty claim!) and should take more care with my returns in future. They are the ones who have made a (fundamental technical) error…
I’m grateful to you both, and am reassured that it’s not just me being mucked around by HMRC agents (who I agree are always polite etc).
@larkswood12 As a brief follow up, you and I were exchanging comments on the criteria for claiming the special French tax treatment for a pension lump sum, some time back.
After a lot of research/thought, I am not going to take the risk with one particular UK pension plan, as I already took a single distribution before coming to France, as a UK tax free amount. I don’t think in good conscience I qualify for the favourable 6.75% rate if I take the balance as a lump sum when French resident, even though others incl on SF, might have do so…The risks of eye watering tax rates applying if the claim is not sustained is too great. I don’t believe in ‘try-on’ claims as a matter of principle.
Instead I will spread the pension plan amounts over several years, with otherwise unused lower rate bands and allowances, and believe I can get to an effective tax rate of 16%, without any obvious risk.Thanks for supplying some of the technical background papers…
Excellent advice, which I will follow when I next speak to HMRC…
Ah. I thought you were a tax specialist George1. But I was beginning to doubt my guess as if you were, I couldn’t see how you were getting into this mess with HMRC.
Now I know that if even you are getting into this bother with HMRC , none of us have any chance.
George1 you can withdraw at least £30,000 each - you and your wife each - without UK tax being deducted at the point of withdrawal… Just use the small pots rule. You can do 3 whole pot withdrawals of max £10,000 per pot, each, in your lifetime tax free. (not even the usual default 20%)
You will have to account for them on the net 6.75% basis to France when you do your tax return the flowing year. But unlike other withdrawals if you tell your provider you’re doing small pot withdrawals (and assuming your provider isn’t someone like Vanguard or a small provider who might say they don’t do small pots admin)the provider is not required by HMRC to deduct and shouldn’t.
(You’ll have to make the pots of the right size by transfers in to optimise if you don’t happen to have 3*10,000£ pots already lying around. Personally I’d build an existing smaller pot up to £10k but if I had anything larger would create a new one rather than reduce back to £10k just in case of complications with a previous higher value tidemark that pot had reached… but prob not necessary I’d just feel it safer.)
I think that mirrors @JoCo 's comment to express the request in some way they have no option - I just asked the ‘receptionist’ to cancel the tax code on the pension, as it had a DTT form lodged against the pension - she said immediately, I can’t do that I have to transfer you to the specialist!
Ah, apologies if you thought I was suggesting you ‘go it alone’ - I would or should have suggested you ask a tax inspector if you can, quoting the tax bulletin and if necessary running past the ‘circumstances’ and get it in writing, as there is provision for lump sum tax treatment following an 'early redemption of capital, the example cited in the tax bulletin I think was Swiss pensions.
And of course, opting for the phased withdrawal approach (extra 10% tax) does allow you to keep the remaining funds invested over the years - otherwise presumably you would pay French tax on the returns on the investment once withdrawn from the pension.
I presume you have also ruled out an annuity purchase, as you worked in the area you will know all the options for these!
The tax bulletin paragraph is 140 - (google translation given here, of course, as ever pursue the actual bulletin text if you are still interested…)
Case of early redemptions: Capital payments made following early redemptions of all or part of retirement savings in accordance with the regulations in force in the country considered may benefit from the levy if they are not exempt (BOI- RSA-PENS-20-10) and if a single payment is made in respect of the event causing the early release. In addition, these payments do not call into question the possibility of benefiting from the levy for subsequent payments in the event of a new early release or upon retirement. This is particularly the case for the release of all or part of the rights for the acquisition of the main residence provided for by certain foreign pension plans, which may benefit from the levy, all other conditions being met, and does not prevent the possibility of benefit from the levy again for the future. Likewise, a taxpayer who has liquidated part of his tax-free rights in advance pursuant to the provisions of the third to seventh paragraphs of Article L. 132-23 of the Insurance Code may subsequently under the same contract or pension plan, benefit from the discharge.
150 For each event enabling a buy-back, only one payment must be made. Thus, the early redemption of the retirement capital authorized by a foreign regulation from a certain age, without other conditions and at any time, can not benefit from the deduction, all other conditions being met, only if a single redemption is carried out relating to all rights. It does not apply if the buy-back is made in the form of partial installments spread over time.
Examples: a) A taxpayer requests the liquidation of all of his retirement rights in the form of capital under two separate additional pension plans. He can opt independently for the 7.5% levy for the taxation of the paid-up capital under one, the other or both pension plans. b) In January 2011, a taxpayer asked the Swiss complementary retirement institution (2nd pillar), for the purchase of his main residence, the advance payment of his retirement capital up to € 100,000. When he retires in September 2012, he receives the balance of his rights acquired in this pension plan in the form of capital, ie € 60,000. As soon as the payment for the principal residence and the payment for retirement are made for two separate events and each of the payments is not split, the taxpayer can request the benefit of the levy for each payment .
It does worry me that there may well be others who experience similar, somewhat arbitrary decisions from HMRC agents, and who are put in a stressful situation of not knowing how best to challenge them. I wonder if HMRC junior staff are not being properly trained and/or their work is not being adequately reviewed. I would not expect letters like the one I received to have been issued, after a technical review by more experienced HMRC staff.
One thing that has really surprised me coming to France has been the amount of time I have had to spend dealing with (my fairly uncomplicated) UK tax issues, which I thought I was largely leaving behind! French tax issues have worked smoothly by contrast.
My apologies in turn to you if it read that way. I absolutely wasn’t thinking that at all.
I had started to draft a request for an advance ruling from the Impôts, regarding whether they would grant me the special 6.75% tax rate for a pension lump sum, given I’d already taken a distribution when in the UK. Then I thought - how can I in good conscience write such a request when I can’t even persuade myself that, on my facts, this claim has merit. That’s what I meant that I didn’t favour (either for me, or once upon a time for clients) "go it alone/try on claims’ ie where the specific facts don’t support the claim. Undoubtedly there will be others whose circumstances do permit credible claims…
Brief follow up to the below…
HMRC have - finally - agreed to refund me tax withheld in March 2022 (!) from my UK pension…No apology or 'oops forthcoming. They have utterly mishandled a straightforward tax treaty refund claim. I don’t use the word incompetent lightly, as I respect HMRC, and understand the pressures HMRC staff are currently under.However I’m afraid this was sheer technical incompetence in this case. It should not have happened. I hope others are not similarly affected.
Result! I’m pleased you got that, congratulations. Hope Mme’s DT1 will go through more smoothly.
Very practical, helpful advice.
I called HMRC yesterday to try and obtain an NT code, having waited for a couple of months after submitting Form France Individual. After the usual 30 minutes of waiting, when eventually answered, I immediately asked to speak to a tax technician, given this was a tax treaty claim/NT code/refund. It was like Open Sesame at the mention of tax technician. One was immediately whistled up. He did go through the motions of saying they weren’t dealing with post from November and December yet (!). However whilst he was trying to give me an idea of when they might review the Nov/Dec post, he was evidently looking at the form. He then said, as I’m on the phone, he will process it today and issue an NT code.
He pointed out that many people misread one key question on the form which asks when you will pay tax on the income being reported on the form. I had estimated I would pay tax this autumn for the new source of income that arose in 2023. He said that the question was poorly worded and what they meant to ask was - are you French resident and paying tax as a resident (yes, in my case).
The NT code was issued two hours later. I will drawdown a nominal £100 when the code is received by Standard Life, to prompt a refund of all tax withheld, as the refund can’t otherwise be officially made until July (when hmrc receive P60 information from SL).
Thank you @JoCo for the tip off on calling and asking to speak to a ‘tax technician’, it made the process much more effective.