URSSAF Letter - Mise en place cotisation subsidiaire (cotisation PUMa)

(Guy Archer) #1

I’m wondering if anyone has had a similar letter with the above subject from URSSAF Limousin. Strange in itself as we are in Dordogne. Unless the Nouvelle Aquitaine has created some kind of diferent office. I have never had any letter from URSSAF. Both my wife and I have had this letter in our post box today.

Although I have lived and been resident in France since 2002, I travel each week and back to the UK to work for my company there and pay PAYE and NI. I have every year received an S1 (E106) from Newcastle. I am currently covered until April 2018 and will be completing my normal application for the annual renewal well in advance. This is so we get it in enough time to get it through CPAM process and make sure our Carte Vitale is updated.

My wife is mentioned on the S1 as a dependent due to my National Insurance payments. So she has her Carte Vitale too. I do not work in France and have no business here.

The letter appears to be demanding an 8% taux de cotisation. I have not retired early I am stilling working in the UK and have reciporal health care.

Is this a scam, or just French Administration left hand not knowing the right hand? Or a boiler plate letter being sent out to evyone. Funnily enough it does however come after getting a degrevement from the tax office for a mistake they made on this years tax which they incorrectly made. Has someone tried to make my life difficult I wonder.

Anyhow… The letter says the following…

objet Mise en place cotisation subsidiaire maladie (cotisation PuMa) Madame, Monsieur, Depuis le 1er janvier 2016, la prise en charge des frais de santé a été profondément réformée dans ses principes par a mise en place de la protection universelle maladie (PUMa) Celle-ci conduit directement à ce que toutes les personnes travaillant ou résidant en France de manière stable et régulière ont droit, de façon continue, à la prise e urs frais de santé en cas de maladie ou de maternité. A la différence de ce qui prévalait avec l’ancienne couverture maladie universelle de base (CMU-b), cette nouvelle protection sociale est de droit, sans qu’aucune ne soit nécessaire de la part des assurés due ni perçue pour l’année 2016 auprès Il résulte de cette réforme qu’aucune cotisation au titre de la cMu b n’a été universelle personnes qui en étaient jusque-là redevables. Cependant, dans le cadre de la nouvelle protection de tout assuré bénéficiaire de la prise en charge des frais de santé est amené à contribuer au financement l’assurance maladie en de sa situation et de ses ressources 2016 du fait de la Selon les informations dont nous disposons, vous de assurance maladie française en titre d’une abilité de votre résidence en France, sans avoir néanmoins été amené à cotiser à la sécurité sociale au activité professionnelle o à oir une pension de retraite au titre d’une telle activité passée. Par conséquent, le vous serez susceptible d’être redevable d’une subsidiaire maladie cette cotisation cours du mois de novembre 201 sur la base des éléments transmis dans votre sera déclaration fiscale a titre des revenus 2016, démarche supplémentaire de votre part. vous recevrez à ce titre un appel à cotisations au cours du mois de novembre 2017, vous aurez 30 jours à réception du courrier pour vous en acquitter. Vous pourrez toutefois demander un étalement du paiement de cette cotisation, qui avec vous par les équipes de l’Urssaf. Seules les personnes ayant de faibles revenus d’activité ou de remplacement mais des revenus annuels du capital à 9 654 euros sont redevables de cette cotisation, dont l’assiette est limitée au revenus du capital et dont e taux de cotisation est fixé à 8% es principes d’éligibilité cette que modalités de son calcul sont précisés à l’article L 380-2, R 380-3 380-8 380-1 code de la sécurité sociale. gestion de votre dossier est confiée à l’Urssaf Limousin. r toute question complémentaire ou si vous pensez ne pas devoir être assujetti du fait de revenus d’activité ou de remplacement dont nous n’aurions pas connaissance vous pouvez écrire à compter du 3 novembre à l’adresse suivante puma.aquitaine@urssaf.fr ou téléphoner au 0 810 594 267 s prions d’agréer, Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de nos salutations distinguées Le Directeur

It would be really nice if anyone has some ideas.

(Anna Watson) #2

As the letter explains, it’s a new system. This is the first time cotisations have been charged in this way, and no doubt there will be a few teething problems.
The text as given seems somewhat garbled and it’s not clear whether it’s saying that you are liable, or that you may be liable (ie this is simply a circular that’s being sent to a range of households, some of whom will subsequently receive a bill and some of whom won’t).
If you do get a bill, you would just need to explain that you are both covered by an S1 and are not à la charge of PUMa.
Nothing to worry about, not a scam, just admin rolling out a new exercise and doing its best to explain.

(David Martin) #3

Probably something to do with this.

(Guy Archer) #4

Thank you Anna for your interpretation. It seems strange if I wasn’t in that system or CMU before why I would receive this for the new one. It would be nice and not doubt save the country money if this was all joined up with CPAM where we are registered with our S1. All these letters do cost in administration and then all the necessary contact and inquiries to deal with it. All the same thanks.

(Anna Watson) #5

I guess that basically the new system has been designed to pick up people who previously slipped through the net year after year. In your case there is a good reason why you’ve been living here but not paying cotisations but in some cases there won’t be. Once they’ve updated the records, hopefully they won’t need to ask again.

(Miguel Casas Garate) #6


I recieved the same letter on Friday. I had to drink lots of champagne to digest it.

It seems like this a massive letter to anyhow that is “detected” as a French resident.

In principle, the charges will be calculated from our impots sur le revenu, provided your DECLARED income is higher than 9,654.

I am in a similar situation, I work in Switzerland and I pay my medical insurance there since years. I am writing a letter to this service explaining the situation and the reasons for which I consider I should be excluded. I will ask them to confirm officially this exclusion.


(David Martin) #7

Surely if you aren’t registered with the French healthcare system you would not have received a letter?

(Miguel Casas Garate) #8

Hi David,

I was never registered and I am not. I am writing the letter with attestations from my employer and the health ensurance system.


(Nathalie Daguet) #9

Hi everyone,
My partner (who is a French native, has always lived in France) received that same letter except it was supposedly from URSSAF PACA. I have strong doubts about this letter - to me it very much looks like a scam. The margins are extremely narrow (very unlike the URSSAF style), there is no proper address on the header (just the URSSAF logo), the letter is not signed (just “le directeur”, no name, no signature) and it was posted in St Priest near Lyon (not our region at all), this is why I went online to see if anyone else thought it was a scam. Let’s see what happens but I’d be very cautious before sending any sort of money to these people or even calling or sending them an e-mail - it could be a new kind of phishing too.

(Anna Watson) #10

But scams usually have a point to them. This letter, as I understand it, is not asking you to send any money. It is simply a circular letter explaining - entirely correctly, if not in full detail - how PUMA cotisations are being calculated this year. What would be the point of a scammer paying to send thousands of letters not asking for any money? The logic of that argument defeats me.

(stella wood) #11


Personally… I would take the letter down to my CPAM office and chat with the folk there… they will know all about what is going-on in the various Health sections…and they are always so helpful…

Might be better than simply ignoring it…

also, if it is a scam (of whatever sort)…it will be worth identifying it as such and alerting folk…

(Anna Watson) #12

Here is a copy of the letter that someone has put online. Looks as if all the letters have been sent out centrally, presumably generated automatically by computer for everyone whose income declaration/cotisation records identify them as meeting the criteria for being liable for cotisations subisidiares, and the details of their local URSSAF have also been entered automatically by the computer.

(stella wood) #13

Many Forums on the Web are thick with enquiries from folk who have received this type of letter… most of them are unsure… mainly because of the slack way it has been put together…no proper Heading… not personalized …no address etc etc.

If it is real, whoever put it together should get a talking-to for the total lack of professionalism.

Oh, and several folk have tried calling the 0810 number shown on the letter… no-one (on the forums) has yet managed to get through…so still waiting…

Really would like to get to the bottom of this…

(Anna Watson) #14

Yes I’ve seen all the panic, but I don’t understand it. It’s a circular, there is no personal information in the letter, and I wouldn’t expect a circular letter to be personalised, they’re not usually are they? Not sure about the “no address” bit - how did they arrive if there was no address?
I’m sure the bills will be personalised when they arrive…

(stella wood) #15

@Anna Hi Anna…

Every piece of correspondence we have ever received from URSSAF, was on an official document, bore all their info… Even their very first contact letter carried all their details…date and place of issue…plus our name/address and other personal info given to them by CMU.

Nothing about the letter shown above and talked about by others… gives me confidence that it is real… but I would still take it to my friends at CPAM for their input.

(Anna Watson) #16

Whatever. The point I was trying to make was that this is not, at this stage, a personal communication being sent to individuals by their own URSSAF. It’s a blanket circular being sent out nationally and I imagine all the letters have been printed off and mailed as one megahuge batch print job. Printing 96 separate print batches by department, so as to get each letter on the correct departmental letterhead “signed” by the correct person at that branch of URSSAF, when in essence all the letters are the same, would seem a less efficient use of resources, no? However if in fact it’s a scammer who has spent his or her money to help prevent people getting nasty surprises just before Christmas, I think they’re doing a public service and deserve a vote of thanks…

(stella wood) #17

Hi Anna… so who decides which folk will be targeted ?? It does not seem like blanket coverage… we have not received anything…not heard so far that anyone in our commune has, either… they normally contact me immediately with anything they don’t understand…

The point I am trying to make… is that… in this day and age… when we are being told to watch out for (and ignore) bogus communications…if this is a genuine contact, whoever is responsible should be ********** .

By the way… the contact number the letter gives is not the same as the URSSAF prints on their web page…

(Anna Watson) #18

Well - as explained in the letter!
Cotisations subsidiaires are due from people who meet two simple criteria: 1/ their unearned income from specified sources during 2016 was above the threshold of 9,XXX€, and the tax office can easily identify these people from their income declarations, and 2/ their healthcare cotisations during 2016 below the specified thresholds, and URSSAF can easily identify these people from its own records. David’s link in post 3 explains that the tax office has now shared information with URSSAF, hence putting URSSAF in a position to identify the people who meet both critera.

Maybe it seemed like a good idea to set up a special helpline for queries on this specific matter, rather than tie up the general enquiries switchboard?

Well, each to their own opinion. If people doubt the letter but are curious, they can always check out article L 380-2, R 380-3 380-8 380-1 of the code de la sécurité sociale, as referred to in the letter. Or they can ignore it altogether and the only consequence might be that they will have less time in which to budget for the bill when it arrives. And then no doubt there will be folks complaining that they should have been given prior warning, despite the fact that all this information was put in the public domain in January 2016 when PUMA was first launched and a circular which they didn’t like the look of, was sent round.

I do take your point about being careful, but since the contents of this letter appear to be informative and entirely correct, and are basically inviting you to familiarise yourself with French legislation, common sense suggested to me that it might be worth taking notice of it, so I’ll wait to be proved wrong.

(Claire Street) #19

Dear Guy

I had the same letter as you in the post and am worried about the situation. I took it to my local CPAM and they helped me draft an email to reply, stating that I held an S1. We are in a similar situation to you in that my husband commutes back to UK for work and we organise an S1 annually. We also had a tax issue for first time this year where they wrongly charged social charges on UK rental income that we had to get reimbursed. I was wondering if this was linked.
I did manage to speak to a lady on the phone line yesterday. All she would say was that I had to wait as the central office was deciding on who was liable for the cotisation or not and that I would be contacted.
Have you had any further developments that could shed some light? I had been working on what I would do if England stopped issueing the S1’s because of Brexit, for situations like mine, not that France would potentially stop accepting them.
I also don’t understand how they calculate the 8%. It doesn’t seem to make sense on the URSSAF website. If it is simply 8% of gross declared income that we give from earnings in the UK then it is very worrying.

(David Martin) #20