URSSAF Letter - Mise en place cotisation subsidiaire (cotisation PUMa)

(Claire Street) #21

Thank you very much David for sending the link. The information is reassuring and I hope my email stating we hold a valid S1 will be sufficient and an invoice letter will not be sent. Fingers crossed!

Aquitaine David Martin
November 28 |


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CStreet Claire Street
November 28 |

Dear Guy I had the same letter as you in the post and am worried about the situation. I took it to my local CPAM and they helped me draft an email to reply, stating that I held an S1. We are in a similar situation to you in that my husband commutes back to UK for work and we organise an S1 annually…
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(Guy Archer) #22

Yes. Thank you David for sending this recent link too.

(David Martin) #23

It just goes to prove that there is a time and place for posted links.

(Debra Archer) #24

It’s a mailshot and not everyone has had it so if you chat with people who have had it, you might be able to figure out the mailshot criteria :slight_smile:

The relevant poeple to receive it in my view would be:

anyone who was on the old CMU - they will have missed a year of cotisations because CMU ceased to exist when PUMa came in. They won’t pay the same cotisations as before and maybe even none at all because under PUMa, pension income isn’t taken into account, only capital income (capital gains and rental income).

anyone who has earned income or business income below the lower threshold of around 4000 euros but also has capital income above the higher threshold of 9654 euros per annum and nobody else in the houshold pays cotisations based on income higher than that threshold will now get a supplementary cotisations bill.

This only affects people ‘a la charge de France’ for healthcare - so people who are in the system with an S1 from the UK won’t be liable for these cotisations, just as they weren’t liable for CMU cotisations.

I’d have thought they’d only mailshot the above people and not include people on S1s so if anyone with an S1 who isn’t working (which they shouldn’t be, as if you’re working you shouldn’t still have the S1) has received it, it’s obviously an error. I’d have guessed that the error might be that they may have mailshotted anyone with capital income above the relevant amount, using info from our tax returns - except if that was the case I’d have had the letter myself and I haven’t!

(Debra Archer) #25

It does actually say that it only refers to people who have their fees ‘prise en charge’ and who haven’t got a French pension and have never paid any cotisations so I don’t know how they managed to not exclude all S1 holders in that, only some. If you’ve had the letter and you’re on an S1 it’s probably safest to inform them of the existence of the S1 in case it hasn’t been noted properly on your file with CPAM. As each CPAM is departmentally independant and as usual, departments do things differently, I’d be interested to know if anyone else on an S1 in the Charente has received this letter.

(Anna Watson) #26

Lots of detail here

(Debra Archer) #27

It’s still only talking about people who have their fees paid by France though, Anna, which people on S1s don’t. I’d think it was a general mailshot to let people know in case they plan to work and therefore lose their S1 cover - except as I said, I haven’t had this letter myself. I can only think that some CPAMS don’t have people’s S1s correctly registered.

(Debra Archer) #28

I can’t think of how else they’ve made the error because if I didn’t have an S1 I’d certainly fit the criteria that should have been set for those who should receive this mailshot.

(Debra Archer) #29

Just because you have the right to have your fees paid by France by virtue of stable residence - it doesn’t mean you have or have to. They mention the EU bit in relation to Swiss cross border workers but not those in the EU S1 situation - presumably because there is no doubt that S1 holders don’t have their fees paid by France whereas Swiss cross border workers can choose either way. Maybe they think all S1 holders will give up their S1s and decide to contribute to France instead? :slight_smile:

Whatever - if I’d had the letter my response would be to reply and tell them I have an S1 and am therefore not under France’s charge for healthcare and not liable for supplementary cotisations to PUMa.

(Debra Archer) #30

Another interesting thing to know would be whether other EU Citizen S1 holders (ie non British) have had the letter. If not, maybe it’s a preparation for brexit to let you know that whatever happens with that, you can still be covered by France for healthcare? If that was the case though, I would again have thought I would have had the letter.

(Anna Watson) #31

I still don’t particularly see it as an error, nor anything sinister. As you say it’s a circular, all it’s doing is explaining the rules, it’s not like people have been sent erroneous bills. This is the first year of the scheme so you would expect a few teething problems, and if in doubt better to send the information to too many people rather than too few, no? Presumably in between sending the circular and issuing bills they’re busy running various cross-checks to sift out the “special cases” that weren’t identifiable from the raw data they got from the tax office…

No that’s true but you do have to have health cover one way or another if you live permanently in France. Anyone who lived here in 2016 and wasn’t signed up to PUMa and didn’t have an S1 or private cover,will presumably be picked up - living here and relying on a UK EHIC won’t work any more. Though I have no clue what they will do if they find people in that situation, they can’t charge them for PUMa healthcare in 2016 if they weren’t registered for PUMa in 2016.

(Debra Archer) #32

It’s not anything sinister but it IS an error because not everyone who is in the health system has received the letters and not every one who has an S1 has received one - but some have, which is why I think they must not be registered correctly as having an S1 by their local CPAM. In which case it’s best to respond to explain that you have an S1.

As far as I’ve seen it’s only people who are already in the health system one way or another who have received the letter so it’s not connected to picking up people who aren’t registered and who have been using an EHIC card. Surely anyone who did that wouldn’t make a tax return anyway, so their info wouldn’t be passed on?

(Debra Archer) #33


I still think it’s better to let them know now if you have an S1.

(Guy Archer) #34

I noticed Connexion has an article on this.

The 0810 number is a premium rate line which perhaps is where people are scaming money

(Robert Hodge) #35

I think you have hit the nail on the head Guy in that the scam is in the premium rate number.
I notice that in the actual circular letter the number is given as 0 810 594 267 whereas surely any French person typing a phone number would automatically type it as 08 10 59 42 67.
I also see that the letter states that bills will be sent out in November, but I don’t see any comments on this thread from anyone who has actually received a bill and I would have thought that someone would have said something by now if they had received one.
My vote is that it’s a scam with money being made from calling the premium rate phone number.

(Anna Watson) #36

They’re pretty dozy scammers then - 081x are the lowest cost premium numbers, max 6 cents per minute and capped at 15 centimes surcharge per call, so even if every recipient made two calls each, it would nowhere near cover the costs of sending out the letters! If I’d been doing the scam I would have at least chosen an 089x number when I could have netted 80 cents a minute or 3 euros per call, though I probably still wouldn’t have covered costs.

Before we get too carried away with conspiracy theories - in fact all URSSAF’s contact numbers are surtaxed. Their main 4-digit number 3957 costs around 12 cents per minute. Obviously they don’t want you to bother them unless you’re desperate.

Here are some more contact numbers, as they appear on a French autoentrepreneur blog website (www.auto-entrepreneur.fr/actualite/lurssaf-possede-desormais-un-numero-unique-pour-etre-jointe/)

Les autres numéros de téléphone des services de l’URSSAF

Les autres numéros de services spécialisés des Urssaf ne changent pas pour autant. On garde notamment :

Cesu 0820 002 378
Pajemploi 0820 007 253
Auto-entrepreneur 0821 086 028
Titre emploi service entreprise (Tese) 0810 123 873

and the same numbers as they appear in a business blog

Assistance téléphonique aux services en ligne Urssaf (Tél. : 0811 011 637) ;
Cesu (Tél. : 0820 002 378) ;
Pajemploi (Tél. : 0820 007 253) ;
Auto-entrepreneur (Tél. : 0821 086 028) ;
Titre emploi service entreprise (Tese) (Tél. : 0810 123 873).


For non geographical numbers the convention seems to be not to use the xx xx xx xx xx format. Va savoir.

(Sandy Hewlett) #37

Following on from this, both Mr. H. and I received bills from URSSAF yesterday for over 1000 euros each. So rang URSSAF, who have had several calls about this, and they said I must write and produce the S1. I told them the S1 was with CPAM but they insisted they have sight of this or a copy. So rang Newcastle who said they don’t send out copies at all and have no access, according to them it is with CPAM. So rang CPAM who said they need to speak to an ‘expert’ about this and will get back to me. Explained the urgency, as the bills are due for payment mid January and URSSAF won’t cancel without an S1. CPAM say they are “looking into it”. Rang URSSAF back and asked if they could just get the document from CPAM … non madame, impossible! So stuck between two creaking French bureaucracies at the moment … oh joy, happy days. Wish me luck!

(Guy Archer) #38

I read your post and just checked my post box. Yes you bet two letters demanding over 1000 euros each. I will have to take time during my holiday writing a letter to let the administrative left hand know what the right hand should already know! We never get rid of any document (fingers crossed) so should be able to find the S1 hopefully.

(Debra Archer) #39

DWP are a pain not sending copies out. If you have an S1 via HMRC they’ll send a copy, if that’s any help to anyone.

CPAM told me they would scan my S1 and keep a copy in their system but when I needed a copy once they had a record of scanning it but no actual copy could be found. Mine are annual and I’ve scanned them before handing them over ever since.

Your attestation de droits from ameli.fr shows a ‘code gestion’ which reflects that you are covered by the UK. Perhaps that would help?

(Sandy Hewlett) #40

Success in that calling CPAM every two hours and being a general pain in the backside got me an email yesterday enclosing my E121 which had previously disappeared in the system. Now I have a copy and can send to URSSAF. Just wondering if there’s a general form letter that would be useful …