Hi Brian, no I haven't lost faith in humanity, it was a knee-jerk reaction immediately after the school shooting and came more from the heart than the head. Yes it's been a mad world for a long time and media coverage makes it seem even madder as we have so much, too much?, info of what's happening at any given moment anywhere in the world. The amount of killings and murders etc when set against a population of over 6 billion people puts things a little better into perspective even if it doesn't reduce the brutality and atrociousness of such crimes. Anyway I won't go on...!
love it. Thanks for reminding me that humour still exists
Power and religion are linked, because religion is a very effective tool to hold power over people with. It makes people crazy enough to get them to do stuff like this young man did.
Hitler was christian,by the way.
I'm an atheist.
It isn't the same to belong to a religious or extremist group (militia movements in the USA,,Ulster paramilitaries,IRA, religious zionists, the christian right, hindu nationalists,islamic fundamentalists, national front, nazi party,communists) and to take up arms and become a terrorist. If everyone with any history of fundamentalist involvement were arrested we'd have no room in the courts, prison or money left for anything else. It can't be predicted who amongst these vulnerable, deluded people will actually loose hold of the basic grasp of right and wrong or not. There is no 2, to add to the first 2!!
<i think the point was made very well by Andrew, that there was no guarantee that he did'nt have a large bomb of some sort, so attacking him would have risked more lives than setting up defended posts and waiting for him to surrender or strike. It makes sense to me.. It also makes sense to me that young people end up in the state he was in. He's been indoctrinated by religion, extremist politics and probably faced with being labelled a terrorist whether he chose to be one or not. I think there are a lot of deranged people around and whats scary is the amount of psychopaths in positions of power and responsibility, who manipulate vulnerable others into believing their extremist nonsense. I mean from all countries, not just one in particular.
Like I said on another forum recently, the best way to get power and wealth quickly, is to invest in companies who deal in unfaire trade (14 million slaves in the world!)sell drugs and weapons, legal or illegal, and use religion to justify it. Until people stop behaving like gansters on the street and in the boardrooms, things will always be like this. If anyone out there has investments, try checking up on whether they're in ethical or sustainable development, or not. It works wonders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socially_responsible_investing.
back to andrew's starting point. I also have no religion but have learned a lot from buddhism and quakerism, both of which put peace before other principles. lose faith in humanity and the energy for finding a better world is gone. in my work I could never allow that. the world went mad millenia ago but now we somehow have to turn that around before we selfdestruct. one fanatic who commits these fortunately isolated crimes does not make humanity bad.
The point I'm making is, extremeists don't go by our law, they have their own. If the man had a daughter, and she was found to have commited adultery, she would have been sentenced to lashes. not right in your white man's law, but that is a way of life for them.
I repeat, the US soldier who killed Afghans is ONLY being looked into because of the massive public outcry. They were really hoping nobody would notice.
Meanwhile, on a third tangent, what about the man who shot dead a young boy in a US town, claimed he confused the boy with someone bad, and STILL has not been investigated. Two parents lose their son in cold blooded murder, and the killer enjoys the freedom he always did. Same situation. One death is not worth more than another.
The man in Toulouse killed.. he is dead, what can be done
The man in Afghanistan will be sent home, get a slap on the w<rists, and live out his days with his family because discharge from the forces is enough punishment.
the gun-toting vigilante in the US will walk free to the day he dies, get to keep his gun, and shoot any other kid he does not like the colour of.
In plain, the killing in Afghanistan was done by someone who obviously got off on that... he had no reasoning in his mind.. he did not wake up one day, and actually come to a realisation that it would be a good idea, he just has some light in his head switched on, and that was it.
The man in Toulouse has been talking in circles with similar folk, of similar beliefs, probably since the day he was born, he was disgusted with white people, and had been trained to do what he did. Terrorists don't become terrorists over night, the whole thing is planned, they learn combat techniques, how to handle weapons, whatever skills the head honcho of their chapter might come in useful.. how to fly a 747, for example. He had clear intent, thought it was his duty, and someone, somewhere behind that, called him last week to tell him it was time to start the killings.
Also, for the record, the US govt, and the British, and whoever else is involved in this disgusting power struggle for the mid east ALL know there is civillian deaths. They just don't count on it being done as a leisure activity
Soldiers go into battle when their government says they will. They do not have the luxury of deciding whether or not it is a "just war".
At least now after the Iraq fiasco parliament decides when the UK goes to war.
Wer will have to wait and see what the mental state of the american sergeant was. His counsel seems to be laying down a defence similar to "shellshock" or PTSD.
The maniac in toulouse believed that by doing the deed, he had opened his gateway to heaven... no reason to stick around here on this rock.
Sorry I've been a bit busy since posting my somewhat knee-jerk reaction to events here. But it's led to some very interesting comments and a new thread that I've just read by Ciro who, for me, has summed up the global problem of two very different world running in parellel on the same planet, in parellel but totally out of phase with each other yet the two are interdependant.
A million and one questions are now being asked both privately and publically in France about how and why this happened and what could have been done, should have been done and will be done in the future. apart from the knee-jerk response of new laws to deal with those who consult extremist sites and go on indoctrination/training camps etc., time will tell and if the answer was simple it would have already been found. Let's just hope they get it right and that these incidents are kept to a minimum - I'd like to write irradicated but being realistic I can't see that happening, unfortunately.
Bon dimanche à tous ;-)
Agreed, Jane, also, labelling someone a lunatic, mad, or unstable might serve to dismiss them in someone's eyes, but it is not madness that makes jihadists kill.Terrorism is NOT madness. I'm mad... certified... have I killed anyone in a temper tantrum?? ?No. Calling names does not make these people any smaller. They will never just "go away", no matter what your opinion of them may be.
Abigail, there are surgeons in the world that have carved their initials in women, raped people under anastaethic, removed organs that did not need to be removed, prescribed PURPOSELY the wrong medication...
Social rules do not apply to people who have an inbuilt need to harm.
The law is only now being followed in Afghanistan because of public upraor. The initial intention was to let it be, and not rock the boat. It was only after petitioning that they decided to "do something"
You separate criminal lunatic with soldiers... what I'm saying is, there is no line, you don't HAVE to become one or the other, there are criminal lunatics in our defence and police forces, in our hospitals, nursing homes, driving our kids to school on busses, fighting our fires, and yes, making our laws also.
These people are dangerous, most of them are not mad, they are looking at us and thinking that we are dangerous.
If someone is already prepared to die as they commit their awful actions, they have already taken away our sanction against them.
I am not justifying or making allowances for violence in any form, just being realistic and acknowledging that these people exist.
Abigail, the two situations ARe comparable... this "issue" we brought up also involves "monstrous killings"...
dramafying what happenned in Toulouse does not make what happened in Afghanistan any less of a crime, and ovbiously it's easy to see that John's sum up of "it didn't happen in my back garden, so why should I bat an eyelid" holds true for so many people.
The man in Toulouse saw himself as a solider of sorts. He was carrying out what he believed to be his duty. The US soldier in Afghanistan, however, is supposed to be there to PROTECT the citizens against jihadists.. how can you not see what is wrong with this picture.
not without giving them a good hiding first...
Yes agreed....
I am afraid I can not see anything other than Murder, instability with a person when they perform
such acts as killing people...just as easily as they might take a walk or a sip of water.
Jane are you trying to justify this madness or making allowances for extreem actions?
The more we give boys their toys the more they will want to go and out and play with them!!
In my view Rick Santorum is a religious fanatic, yet he is getting many american voters to vote for him in the Republican primaries.He is out there propounding his extremist views supported by the freedom of speech.
In the case of Israel, it seems to me that their government is almost sacrificing their diaspora in their continuing conflict against the palestinian people. It is very difficult to separate the actions of an extremist government from the nation and, indeed, if a majority voted for them, you should not. Israel is in contravention of a UN decree regarding the building of settlements, yet it continues to see itself as the upholder of democracy in the Middle East.
The actions of a country's governemnt policies directly affects its population whether they are resident in that country or living abroad. For example, many people fleeing nazi germany were interned in the UK and italian, german and japanese people who had been peacefully living and contributing living either in the UK or the USA were also so interned.
Now that movement between nations is so much easier and information is so readily available, it is not surprising that there are certain individuals who see it as their "duty" to seek retribution when the rest of the world is failing to right the wrongs as they see it.