I sincerely appreciate your intentions John. Bon weekend.
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Thereās truth in many of your arguments Damian - and I agree thereās no reason to berate anybody.
But itās also important not to overstate the case. Alcoholic drinks are not the same as āpoisonā - there is evidence that moderate consumption of some alcohol is beneficial to health, and indeed one of the main reasons it is now socially acceptable, unlike some other drugs, is that when water was generally contaminated, alcohol was essential to health; and (having recently read a history of French wine - by Rod Phillips) I also now understand just how central it is to Franceās history and culture. And of course, alcohol and/or other drugs are universal - as far as I know in all human societies - I myself have had the dubious pleasure of drinking airag (fermented horseās milk) in Outer Mongolia, where there is little else to make alcohol, and where of course it is valued not only for its consciousness-altering properties, but also as an essential preservative.
Even animals, given half a chance with naturally fermenting fruit, etc, will get very merry indeed.
It may be that people donāt āneed alcohol to get byā - but does that answer the right question? Perhaps instead of asking about basic need, we should ask whether alcohol generally enriches peopleās life experience?
No need to use such emotive language Damian. I donāt see anyone on this thread who is upset and indignant other than you. If this subject triggers you so badly it might be best for you to scroll past or mute it.
Izzy x
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@letstryagain I wonder if the view expressed is contrary to the majority? I think if the question had been posed merely as an interesting discussion point then those of us who donāt in fact drink might have been happy to join in. Unfortunately, there was, perhaps, a touch of the Pharisee and āThank you God that I am not as other menā
Very strong points Geof and you reminded me of some horrific mess I had to drink in Borneo whilst on a business trip. I doubt it was as exotic as āairagā but it was pretty awful. You also jogged my memory on that point about the drinking of alcohol being a safer bet than that of water in days gone by.
The last point you made perhaps sums up my leanings. Historical context and past reasons aside, we are now in the twenty first century. Strides have been made in human development and concepts. Ideas, values and victuals that were previously acceptable have been ācalled outā and rightly committed to the dungeon. I could name many relating to human morals, behaviour and consumption but each of us is as capable as the next of compiling such a list.
Why then has alcohol, which anybody not in denial will admit causes an enormous amount of human pain, suffering and anguish, not been called out and confined to said dungeon?
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Interesting point Damian. I think Iād put cigarettes and sugar in the dungeon ahead of alcohol.
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I am not running away from this discussion but āE Leclercā calls.
Gambling would be near the top of my āRoom 101ā list. I donāt enjoy it anywayā¦
ā¦ which may be the key to understanding all attempts to ban other peopleās vices!
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Cigarettes and sugar are already making their dreary way down into the dungeon while alcohol is cavorting in the belfry.
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You have a powerful way with words, and those quoted are a striking but non-strident argumentative example.
Like many others who have struggled with alcohol over a long life-time, I am very cautious about why and when I use it, and incline to your view that it is easy to fall into its clutches, and often ruinous to the lives of many who do.
I defy all moderate drinkers to deny that their use of alcohol is not from time to time pondered as to its desirability or its riskiness; and with good reason with a mind of honest sobriety. Some of the responses from social drinkers are tinged with a little anxious defensiveness IMO.
Which I predict will be forthcoming, or maybe not for understandable reasons 
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A day without white is probably shite
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Yes to that Peter 
As the old adage goesā¦āwhen I read about the dangers of drinking, I stopped readingā 
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Very well spotted @boilerman John!
Should be poker-burned into a beam behind the bar in every Olde Worlde Hostelrie in not-so-merry England 
Having been through the lockdown ban on alcohol in South Africa I can offer the following:
It is not about whether you drink or not. The alcohol (and in our case the tobacco) industry affects many many livelihoods. From the wine estates/farms workers/breweries/ packing/export/ restaurants and hotels. Aside from the revenue the government makes from taxes.
The narrative was to free up the hospital beds from alcohol induced trauma (which is very relevant in South Africa) and whilst it did this it also led to people going out searching for both booze and tobacco.
Home brews began, the black market thrived, people already financially crippled were paying 3 to 4 times the price. Even the cops eventually got tired and they and every walk of life could be found going to the worse parts of town to get their smokes from imported stock (smuggled over the border) made with no regulations.
Many people are very dependant on alcohol and nicotine and the increase in mental health went through the roof with absolutely no services in place to deal with it.
So yesā¦we all have a choice to drink/smoke but there is a much bigger picture to consider.
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Thank you for posting that. My BFF here is from SA and said exactly the same.
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You mean I am not your BFF in SA? 
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Although your case for āthe bigger pictureā needs to be carefully thought through, I must strongly disagree with your quoted statement above, because your potential for alcoholism is only ever in your own hands, and your own capacity to choose to use alcohol or not is personal.
Your choice is also informed by aggressive multi-million dollar advertising and marketing by industrial chains.
I donāt advocate banning alcohol, but to tend towards much more restriction on its sale, marketing and pricing. To discourage its widespread use.
Having lived in Africa myself I know that home-made alcoholic beverages for social use are widespread in community settings and homes, and is very cheap to produce in relatively small quantities.
I also know that social strictures on drunkenness in African villages and townships discourage excessive use, although some do succumb and can expect to meet disapproval and derision in most social settings.
Def my BFF in SA ! Xxx
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I tend to believe dependency, is a disease, sure we all make the choice in the first instance, after that, its a lottery.
I smoked from 13yrs old, it trapped me for 25yrs, I could not give it up, I had help, and managed to quit. Alone, I would still be smoking, I miss it even now
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