Will there be a new tax on second homes owned by British people?

OK so you mean British immigrant French residents who have their principal and secondary property/s in France (towns of over 50,000 pop) - for example gites, apartments etc - is that what you mean ?

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No,

I mean British nationals resident in France who own more than one property as well as British nationals not resident in France who own a property in France.

Some British nationals resident in France live in communes of a few hundred people, as do we.

Many British nationals own rental properties in rural areas as they are popular tourist destinations and potentrially provide a good source of income from property rentals.

The size of the commune is irrelevant as is whether the British national owner lives in France. The issue is whether the property is classified as a second home and whether the owner is protected against discriminatory action against non EU nationals.

Of course classifying the property as a business may not protect the non-EU national against other discriminatory measures.

Grahame - I must be really dim because I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Are you talking about the subject of this discussion - i.e. increases in Taxe d’Hab for second homes owners (regardless of nationality) in French towns of over 50,000 pop ? If not, what are you referring to?

What discriminatory action? Have I missed something else ?

Also - when you say British nationals resident in France - isn’t that the same as British immigrants in France?

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Like Simon, I can’t get my head round what you’re saying. Could you give a link to this “discriminatory” tax, please? Because the only extra tax I’ve seen anything about, is quite simply a tax on second homes and it applies to all second home owners across the board, there is nothing discriminatory about it. Nothing to do with the owner’s nationality. And as Simon mentioned, the extra tax will only apply in large towns.

This is the government website’s overview of property taxes and it doesn’t mention any differentiation on the basis of the owner being French, EU or non EU, or being resident or non resident. Obviously you are looking at something different, so please share!

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Grahame is trying to justify his statement that:

Once outside the EU British citizens in France will be subject to increased taxes when selling 2nd homes.

He also stated that the French tried this on before but were told by the EU that EU citizens had to be treated like French citizens.
I hope that he didn’t vote leave because this is one of those details that the British people who are resident in France don’t seem to understand; they will no longer be European citizens after March 2019 and will be treated differently. I can’t think of any instance when differently will mean better. It probably won’t matter though because Sovereignty will have been regained. (whatever that means)

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Simon,

have a look at this article on notaires.fr

You should consult a notaire on your specific situation, as we have had to do.

Grahame.

David,

I certainly didn’t vote leave.

I campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU and with others in The People’s Challenge I took the government to court over its intention to use “Royal Prerogative” to trigger the Article 50 notification.

The fight still continues - challenging the idea that the Article 50 notification isn’t revocable, how the EU and the UK are ignoring the rights of millions of British nationals, are the EU citizenship rights of British nationals automatically wiped out IF the UK leaves the EU.

BTW, has anybody considered that once outside the EU British nationals in France will no longer be able to choose whether UK succession laws will govern how their property is disposed of or whether the Code Napolean will tell their estate how the property will be disposed of?

Grahame.

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I’m glad that you are not a leave voter. On another post yesterday someone said that in their opinion nothing will change after Brexit. What planet are they on? So many British citizens in France have taken advantage of their status as European citizens without realising how that fact has smoothed out their lives that many are likely to be in for a big shock.

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Thanks Grahame but I’m fully aware of legislation around French CGT. I wish you’d just stated that earlier - I had no idea what you were on about! Anyway I’m not going anywhere and, if I did, French CGT wouldn’t come into it - no gain = no CGT lol !! :wink:

There shouldn’t be a change re succession laws, as that’s down to Brussels IV which the UK has already opted out of, so if you stay a British national all should be the same as long as you make that clear in your will. Neither should the double tax treaty change.

Jane,

that isn’t quite true.

Here in France at least the succession laws follow the Napoleonic Code and your French immobilier is subject to that. We had to deal with that when my father-in-law died.

As I understand it France hasn’t opted out of the EU regulation on succession law and that is the essential element not whether the UK jhas opted out or not.

Of course which inheritance law you opt for doesn’t change how the French apply Inheritance Tax, the French tax is very heavy on what is left to people outside the family.

Grahame.

Succession and inheritance tax are separate issues. Under Brussels IV if as a British national you have made clear that you wish UK succession law to govern your estate then you can leave your french property wherever you like. Presumably your FIL didn’t do that or died before the Brussels IV opt out came into force (2015)? However, as a french resident the french inheritance tax will apply, so in our case the people we are leaving our property to who are not our children will be hammered.

Jane,

that is what I said.

British nationals with immobilier in France (that isn’t just buildings but buildings are a close enough approxiamation) can leave that to whoever they want. But that doesn’t change the Code Napoleon based inheritance tax laws that apply.

The situation with my FIL would not have changed due to the family circumstances but there would not have been the restrictions on who he could have left his property to even if it didn’t change the tax that was payable.

As I said France has signed up to the EU regs and therefore British nationals with property in France can make it clear whether they want UK inheritance or French inheritance laws to apply.

Of course, you have to take professional advice, as we did, on your own individual circumstances. But you do need to ask the questions of a professional.

Then I misread what you wrote if it seems we are both saying the same thing! I thought you were saying that post-Brexit British nationals would not be able to choose to apply UK succession to their estate, as they can at present. As I understand it Brexit will not make any difference at all, we will still have that option if you choose to use it.

Re costing more for Brits to sell property after brexit - this is not the case. It used to be that third country nationals paid more plus value tax than EU Citizens but this was ruled as discriminatory so the taxation is now the same level for all.

What did change recently was the ability of all non residents (regardless of nationality or having EU Citizenship) to claim back social charges of 15.5% (now 17.2%) because of not being ‘a la charge de France’ for healthcare when the money went into paying off the deficit of the healthcare system. France put the money from those into different funds and so now charge them to non residents. I’d heard this was still being challenged as unlawful but I don’t know if anything has come of the challenge yet.

More revenue. Taxe d habitation being axed. The macronian reforms penalise the owners of property and favour businesses. The french are hit all the same.

Actually it’s a relief that owner occupiers seem to be in line to benefit. I seem to recall that a few years back under Hollande (or was it Sarko) there was a proposal for owner occupiers to be taxed on a notional rental value, as I believe happens in the Netherlands.

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But it’s still correct to say that his laws affect the owners of property other than their home.

There was a furore on a French landlords site when PUMa was first introduced as it meant that a lot of them would be paying extra cotisations. Seems like that was just an intro to getting more money out of landlords.

What Planet are they on…indeed!

Well… extra cotisations are only payable (a) if the person is not already paying cotisations on another source of professional income and (b) if their income is above 9k a year and (c) if they’re not on on a retirement pension. In those circumstances, I don’t see anything intrinsically unfair in being expected to contribute just like everybody else. Obviously no-one likes it when they stop getting a free ride, but looking at it objectively, is there a good reason why rentiers shouldn’t contribute to their healthcare costs? If there is, please point it out because I’m missing it. You could for instance have a self-employed artisan in one house, and a rentier in the house next door, both declaring the same income, and the artisan has paid thousands in cotisations while the rentier pays none. I assumed that this was one of the disparities that PUMa was specifically designed to iron out.

If the artisan happens to also rent out a property, he won’t pay any extra cotisations because he’s already covered via his day job.

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