Faith, belief - sounds like a cult, or a religion. Hope, perhaps, but neither faith nor belief will even scratch the surface for me.
“Hope for the best, plan for the worst.” (oft quoted by the hero character in Lee Child’s Jack Reacher novels).
That’s not necessarily good for the UK
If you can read the whole of the FT article. The rumour is that Nissan hopes that it could edge out manufacturers such as Ford or VW whose costs will go up because of tariffs aiming to capture up to 20% of the UK market - it does not appear that it is aiming to produce cars here destined for the EU, nor make as many cars as it does at present.
Nissan’s official statement (reorted in the FT) is as follows:
Logical. Conversely I guess BMW, VW etc will mop up Nissan’s share of the EU market so basically the manufacturers will redistribute the market between themselves. Less choice for the consumer, but that may turn out to be a recurrent theme for UK consumers in the years to come.
Methinks you think that all news is bad for the UK!!
Anyway, we will see. There is nothing to be done and little point in looking back, it won’t change a thing.
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Hmm. Not sure I would agree there.
The past is for learning from, n’est-ce pas? and you can’t learn from it unless you do look back.
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I am not confusing anything, thanks. What I see is the acute hypocrisy of people who choose to avail themselves of the freedom to live and work in a neighbouring country, while denying that right to others.
I don’t by any means think that ALL brexit voters are knuckle-dragging xenophobes with a 300 word working vocabulary but I am pretty sure that all of that demographic voted to leave the EU.
As someone who was born with dual nationality and have retained it all my life without having to do anything, I don’t have an axe to grind, I am as they say all right Jack. Unlike most of you.
Obviously an enormous organisation like the EU needs to be kept on its toes and efficient - what a shame you won’t be contributing to that process.
I think anyone living here in France who supports brexit should not stay here because it is clear that the fundamental values to which they adhere are not those of the republic or the CNR but rather those of the appalling poujadist xenophobe RN.
You are guests, guests don’t bitch up their hosts if they want their invitation to stand. You know how in the UK there was all the hoo-ha about immigrants having to adapt, etc etc? Well you are the immigrants now.
And finally
"Remember, there are those in France who would like to see Frexit. " yes, those are the ones who will stick you on a boat back across the channel as soon as they have got rid of the brown neighbours with your help.
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First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
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Nicely put!
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I think my world is less certain, more nuanced than what I am reading here. And all I can do is reiterate I do not recognise such descriptions in the people I know who have lived in France for twenty years, are bi-lingual, sat on the local council, taught French to newcomers and students and who deeply love France yet have real concerns about the structure and practices of the EU and wished to find a ways to express their reservations. I fear for a world where there is no place for such subtleties, where we are labelled (incorrectly) by others, where there is intolerance on both sides and it has become too easy to look no further than a stereotype. This discussion distresses me and so I won’t be partaking in it any further.
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While I think you make a set of excellent points with which I agree I think that one should be careful with statements such as the one above. Emotionally I see where you are comming from; intellectually however…
Firstly I can actually see that it is possible to fall in love with, even wish to be a citizen of France (or any EU country) without necessarily falling in love with the EU itself.
Second - by saying “Brexiteer go home” are you not falling into the very trap of the “appalling Poujadist1 xenophobe” yourself and succumbing to the sort of reaction which notches up the response gradually on each side of the argument until we are at each other’s throats.
Surely it is better to say that anyone who lives in France on France’s terms is welcome?
Finally - while there is certainly a degree of hypocrisy in living in France and supporting Brexit that degree does vary with personal circumstances.
Inactifs are not actually exercising treaty rights so would be able to settle in France in any case - perhaps it is not so hypocritical of them to support Brexit; those working for an employer - well, they are exercising their treaty rights but if the employer really wanted their skills a visa could probably be arranged so, again, maybe not exactly biting off the hand of friendship. Those self employed just about making do - yes, for them to support Brexit does smack of hypocrisy.
Brits in France always were. There are many, I am sure, who remember that fact and behave accordingly.
Some won’t of course and I doubt France would be worse off if they returned to the UK.
Indeed.
Locally (to my property in France) 30.54% of the vote for the European elections went to the RN as did the largest part (26.86%) of the vote in the 1st round of the presidential election - thankfully my French is still not good enough for casual conversation otherwise I would potentially have to remember to keep a very low profile politically.
[1] OK, new story to me, you learn something every day :)
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No, but there are vanishingly few rational, qualified and experienced commentators who believe Brexit will be good for the UK economy.
I can, as it happens see some benefits - were we forced, for example, to rely on home grown talent rather than importing it we might improve our training of workers and equipping them with valuable skills.
Sadly that requires a government with some imagination - and I fear that is precisely what we do not have at present.
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I think they are, technically. The FoM directive covers pensioners and self supporting inactifs. If they weren’t exercising treaty rights they would have to follow the normal immigration route - visa application (fee payable) with higher income requirement than for EU citizens, proof of comprehensive private healthcare, and once they arrive in France attend the OFII integration course if required before they are issued their cds (obligatory, fee payable).
OK but the point remains that it is still relatively straightforward, in France, to come and live if you have the means, even if you are not un ressortissant EU.
Of course that does not apply to all EU countries
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Well said Paul. There is an American couple who live in our area who obtained a long term visa by means of some form filling which they did not find to be particularly onerous. Not having FoM rights is certainly not a bar to coming to live in France.
I find it a bit odd that I keep being accused of hypocrisy in relation to FoM rights that I didn’t ask for, didn’t need, and haven’t exercised.
I purchased property here in France before the EU even existed and had to sign a form or two to request permission to do so.
When I decided to become permanently resident here I could easily have obtained a visa to do so had that been asked of me.
I have never registered to vote here in France as I believe that immigrants should not have the ability to do so. What happens in France should be decided by the French.
I don’t believe that I should have the ‘right’ to go and live and / or work in another EU country without so much as a ‘by your leave’.
So just because the EU decided to afford me ‘rights’ that are irrelevant to me, should I be blamed for it ? I reckon that’s somewhat unfair really.
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Do you work here?
I disagree with that - if you live somewhere en permanence, then you should have the right to participate in any election the outcome of which could affect you or your rights and obligations in your chosen home, all the more so if you are contributing financially to the state via taxation.
It was a travesty that EU citizens living in the UK did not get a vote in the referendum, and questionable that Brits abroad for more than 15 years were excluded.
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Yet again you are trying to justify your stance by providing inaccurate information. If you really moved to France that long ago it makes no difference to the fact that with FoM British citizens have been able to move to live or work in the EU and enjoy many rights very easily. Getting a visa and living here is not the same at all and includes many different rules and regulations. You are here as an European citizen, you enjoy the rights of an European citizen and you will have applied for your CdS to remain resident after the transition period as one of the Britanniques resident before Britain completely cuts away from the EU. You have enjoyed these advantages yet are keen to deprive others of the same. Your use of smoke and mirrors proves nothing, you are just an intractable leave voter who either refuses or cannot understand the situation that they are in. Thank God I do not have to rub shoulders with people like that in real life.
Be careful @anon14704272 i think you are approaching a personal attack on @Robert_Hodge.
I would be interested to know from @Robert_Hodge if new information came to light regarding Brexit whether he would ever change his mind?
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Personal attack? Where, how? I’m just pointing out that I’m not impressed a man who does not understand the rules and regulations that he lives under yet expresses his joy that others will be denied those same rights in the future.
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To me this is not in line with this forums normal friendly comments. It is apparent you feel very strongly about this as many others do. Discussion on this subject without personal comments is fascinating when people seem to have entrenched positions.
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