Nesrine Malik is one of the Guardian writers that’s always interesting…
1 Like
Interesting article. I think I’m over-simplifying it when I say I can see how having a corrupt government, like Sudan’s or Egypt’s, might make you more willing to believe the worldview of the conspiracy theorists.
I’m not so convinced it’s a good argument when applied to the UK. The more we hear about this wretched governemt, its automatic cronyism and nepotism, the way the lot of them appear to be in it for personal gain, the more suspicious I am about anything that any of them says - yet I wouldn’t dream of rejecting a vaccine because of that corruption.
But “broken relationship with the State” is persuasive, at least for our anti-vaxxers. Maybe what is happening is that a certain type of person already believes
they have to look out for themselves;
the State doesn’t exist for their benefit but to feed itself and the government on the fruit of their labour;
they have “lost out” in some way to other special interest-groups (the EU; the bankers; Jews; immigrants)
Added to that, they are frightened (not unreasonably) by what is going on.
Then, with a mess of ideas whirling around in their heads, they hear people speaking a simple message (like here: MAGA Pastor Greg Locke say His church will not wear a mask 😷 - YouTube - but it’s not just right-wing “evangelical” pastors, of course) and it offers them a feeling of security.
2 Likes
@Flaneur Interesting points as always.
I don’t fit into your box, I’m pro- Brexit double vaxed Atheist with a relationship with reality.
2 Likes
That is quite a rare stance on this forum, but there must be a couple out there.
There’s at least one, but I’m more Agnostic myself.
I probably didn’t explain it very well. I wasn’t thinking of a Venn diagram with the circle for anti-vax matching exactly the one for Brexit, but wondering if there were a set of idea(l)s which would lead prople to fit the common perception, that people who were pro-Brexit were anti-vax.
Nice to see that differing views are respected.
1 Like
I tend to be a bit of a lone soul on this Guardian reading Boris hating site so it’s nice to know you’re not all Communists!
1 Like
I support Brexit because i find the EU Commission not fit for purpose (the vaccine debacle a prime example) and because UK was always a bad fit. I support vaccination because I follow the science, no brainer really.
1 Like
I am wondering if you thought hard before you voted about how Brexit would deprive people who had legally gone to live in Europe of their way of life?
Did you then go ahead and do it anyway?
The vaccines in EU are now flying out with many countries having overtaken UK. France will catch-up with UK by the middle of next week on 1st vaccines. On 12/8 France has done 97% as many 1st vaccines as UK - over the last week France has averaged 242,000 1st jabs per day whereas the UK has averaged just 37,000.
The EU had a slower start but perhaps a tortoise v hare story again.
There certainly is a dislike of Johnson by many on this forum for good reasons - the lying, corruption, incompetence etc.
And for Brexit as was very predictable it has proven to be an absolute shambles as surprisingly it is tricky delivering on impossible promises.
I don’t wish ill at all on UK, I still have family there including my children and one day we may even head back there permanently - but I would not move there currently with the current divisive incompetent government.
5 Likes
Ursula von de Leyen is known in Germany as Mis Management!
What have Brits legally living in EU countries been deprived of by Brexit?
Is it not paying import duties on Harrod’s hampers?
Divisive incompetent government, Macron to a ‘T’. I’m a Paysan at heart , I love Europe but not the EU!
3 Likes
It’s a long list, but for starters…
Freedom to travel hassle free within the EU.
Freedom to travel to the UK hassle free.
Freedom for friends & relatives from the UK to travel hassle free to visit us.
Freedom to trade hassle free with the UK.
…& add to that…
The still unrecovered drop in the pound which effects pension incomes & the value of any savings in the UK.
5 Likes
I’m off to the UK in a couple of weeks and would love to bring back some Cheddar or a Cumberland sausage or two but I can’t thanks to Brexit. Have you any idea how much despair that has caused? 
4 Likes
Cost to send parcels now prohibitive. Explain that to my 6 year old niece.
2 Likes
We’ve also all been deprived of a lot of time - because we’ve had to deal with a lot more bureaucracy and paperwork (both in France and in the UK - but all caused by the UK - a lot of it not by the fact of leaving the EU in itself, but by the totally incompetent way the May government went about it, surpassed in ineptitude only by the even worse Johnson government).
1 Like
I’m intrigued by your argument. The pro-Brexit argument used to be “Yes, we may lose in the short-term, but it will be worth it in the long-term, and we will have sovereignty.”
I appreciate those may not have been your words, but you seem to be disputing the claim that Brexit has brought significant problems to many people on both sides of the EU/UK border. Is my interpretation correct?
1 Like
The pro-brexit argument went through a number of completely contradictory iterations.
Originally, the argument was that there would be no downsides at all - remember Davis’ ‘exactly the same benefits’ idea of a trade deal? And the official Leave campaign explicitly promised staying in the EEA (ie. pretty much the customs union and single market). Had these promises been fulfilled, much of the ‘deprivation’ outlined above would have been avoided.
The ‘lose in the short-term, but worth it in the long-term’ argument only came much later, when it finally dawned on brexiters that leaving the customs union and single market actually erected all sorts of barriers between the UK and its closest neighbours and trading partners, so was bound to incur huge losses.
2 Likes