Theresa May warns that "no-one will get everything they want" out of Brexit negotiations

(Véronique Langlands) #81

Herd immunity works only if there is a sufficient rate of vaccine take-up; the danger is for the unvaccinated child who comes into contact with the disease later on (because generally anodyne childhood illnesses can often be devastating in adolescence or adulthood) and particularly for those children whose immune system is depressed for one reason or another.
Parents thinking oh I shan’t have my child vaccinated because everyone else is so there’s no risk for my child, reduce the number of vaccinated children so herd immunity no longer operates.
There have been cases of measles this year in Gironde precisely because of the drop in herd immunity.
The risk of bad side-effects from vaccines is lower than the risk from actually catching the disease, yet some parents count on herd immunity where there is no medical reason for their child not to be vaccinated.
I can, however, entirely see the problem with simultaneous multi-vaccine administration, I think it should be spaced out - but that it isn’t being advised purely for administrative reasons.

You are quite right, the threat is unvaccinated children coming into contact with the disease and each other.

(Norman Clark) #82

I know this probably sounds harsher than I intend, but reality does tell us that the UK was always at best a lukewarm member of the EU, and I feel there was an ultimate reality about Brexit that did transcend logic or even common-sense. The ONLY way to describe this favorably was in the ingrained British sense of superiority inherited from Imperial days that made every foreigner less than a British person. It became an act of faith and belief that I feel has entered into the gene pool of the British, which I cannot see ever being removed.

Here I see a consistent and understandable link to people’s connection with the UK, even if there is a frustration with it. Most have used the EU availability o get a better life but have still not accepted the EU as better in any sense of the word. Few , I would suggest are really 'Europeans’e British as we are seeing in Poland and Hungary for examples.

Now people are being confronted by a choice they never thought they would have to make, and understandably it is difficult. However the UK has forced the issue one way or another, and now British people living in Europe have at least a mental hurdle to overcome. Which is the most important to you - a commitment to the life here, or to a past life back in the UK? Only the individual can take that decision. Does staying here in France make you a different person? Separate you from your family? etc etc. No-one can provide a definitive answer to that except the individual. But I don’t think as they say ‘you can have your cake and eat it’.

I have made my decison and have taken French Nationality because that suits me, as I don’t relate to being British anymore - least of all since the vehemence and even hatred that has developed from the UK, which I had personally have never felt.

I am extremely comfortable with my decision, but it is MY decision alone, I have no desire to try and influence others, other than suggesting they consider which is the best decision for them, and either stay or go.

(anon88981270) #83

Nice if you have the choice. The EU rules for lawful residence in France and even gaining permanent residence rights don’t equate to being eligible for naturalisation.

(Paul Flinders) #84

I think that you are right about the UK being a lukewarm member.

At one level we’ve actually been quite active and have made positive contributions to the project - but back home the message has all too often been negative - how the EU is burdening us with unnecessary legislation for instance rather than emphasising the positive such as how that very same legislation allows our manufacturing industry to flourish.

I think that people also forget just what a dire situation the UK was in in the 70’s (industrial unrest, power cuts, IMF loans) - or are simply too young to remember.

So I think that the Leave campaign had its groundwork already done. Add in blaming the EU for failure of the UK government to plan - eg not taking the option to limit free movement following the A8 accessions, failure to provide adequate funding for education or the NHS and failing to ensure enough housing was built and Leave had a very effective campaign. Pity that half of it was untrue.

I think that we are right to review our membership of the EU though and the extent that we want to forge closer political ties - just not the totally kak handed way we have handled things so far.

(David Martin) #85

I think that’s where parliament has let the country down. The referendum result should have been a wake up call for the U.K. and for the EU as well. As it is too many people voted leave because the did not understand the big picture. Instead of seeing the referendum as a chance to put some myths to bed, to remind people of the economic growth enjoyed since the 1970 and to have some evidence to use to persuade the EU that they need to make some changes our the wonderful politicians in Britain decided that they coul£ not stand up, supported by their knowledge and facts as that might lose them votes in the short term. Sad. Weak. Spineless. No they’re happy to throw the baby out with the bath water never mind the expense to the country that they represent.

(Fleur Capaldi) #86

See also

(Helen Wright) #87

I think it’s possibly a little unfair to say that mothers/parents wary of…and committed to…research of vaccines and the issue of informed consent…are just shrugging it off with “oh I shan’t have my child vaccinated because everyone else is”…Very often these parents already have one vaccine damaged child or know of someone close…My age group was very minimally vaccinated compared to today…maybe yours was too…I never had another vaccine after those first ones although I did have childhood eczema until I was 7…When mine were little I questioned the MMR vaccine…agreed to the full course of it for my first born who now has cancer…agreed to only one shot for my second born and none for my third…Both of my now adult daughters are now in the questioning phase…One agreed to one shot of the MMR for her first born and no more…and none so far for her second born…The other agreed to one MMR for both of her kids and no more…They are not “anti-vaxxers” per se but I do know that they are not readily going to be talked into any further vaccines not yearly flu vaccines nor gardasil for their kids…They ask for and read the vaccine inserts and question the health care professionals…one of them has took it even further and had it verified by her doctor that vaccines are not mandatory in uk…I totally agree that if someone is going to agree to vaccination then it should be spread out and single vaccines only and with fully transparent informed consent…”mandatory” without informed consent is not the way forwards…

(Véronique Langlands) #88

Yes - so for a variety of sometimes perfectly valid reasons they are counting on herd immunity to protect their child.
DIata is not the plural of anecdote, obviously, but I had all the imaginable childhood diseases as a child plus scarlet fever and whooping cough and am pretty much ok, yet I know of contemporaries who died and know some who are deaf or brain damaged as a result. I think it is very easy after a few decades of vaccine cover to assume diseases are not in fact as threatening as they can be.

(Helen Wright) #89

The very definition of herd immunity originally applied _only_to naturally acquired immunity…that is…coming across the virus fighting it off and naturally acquiring lifelong immunity through activation of the immune system overcoming the virus and the activation of waiting in the wings T-cells acquired from that experience…The vaccine industry have given a whole different interpretation to the idea of herd immunity…I appreciate that yours and mine and many individual anecdotal experiences may not make a “scientific” study but our experiences are non the less valid…and most likely crucial at this time given the corporate push coercion and in other countries under gunpoint persuasion towards complying with mandatory…

(Roger Bruton) #90

I just spent the weekend in the London area, flying in and out of (yeuch!) Luton. I was glad to get the hell out of there. The traffic was unbelievable. Too many people. Worst of all was the nonsense “conversations” about brexit. If I hear any more of THOSE phrases - the worst of which is “a small price to pay” - I will scream. The relatives whose main reason to vote leave was to get rid of the Poles, have now accepted the reality that they will not be leaving after all, and they are still making regular booze-and-fags trips to Belgium. They see no problem in sorting out the Irish border problem as “it all worked fine back in the 60’s”. My question “are they going to get rid of all these foreign football players and managers?” was met with open-mouthed astonishment. I have now washed my hands of the whole thing - I am SO glad that 12 years ago I got my “lifeboat” - my Irish passport - as far as I am concerned, they can all stew in it. (Now, where is the end-of-rant icon???)

(Véronique Langlands) #91

Herd immunity for those who make it, from the p.o.v. of western Europeans relying on herd immunity to safeguard an individual child may seem like a good idea, but after seeing an infant mortality rate of up to 45% in unvaccinated 0 to 5 year olds I will back vaccination and I am afraid that I am unlikely to change my mind, we’ll just have to agree to disagree :slight_smile:
Another 2 cases of measles in Poitiers, in addition to the person who had measles and died, France Inter said this evening.

(anon64861675) #92

It’s in London and the south-east that there are too many people. The further north you go, or further west or south-west, the fewer people, less road congestion, more unspoiled landscape, better manners, less stress and irritability, cheaper housing.

Young people especially seem drawn to London because of the creative “vibe”, the high-octane living-on-the-edge existence of cramped quarters, the “gig economy”, the ready round-the-clock availability of illegal substances, and a general sense of lawless hedonism married to cut-throat competition for status and space. Perhaps London has always been like that, but on a much smaller scale. Now it’s beginning to feel like an out-of-control atomic pile, needles in the red zone, klaxons blaring “Evacuate! Evacuate!”

I’m getting a sense that the democratic institutions that we’ve trusted to manage the risks of social breakdown and disorder are quickly losing traction, and that people are uneasily aware of the fact. The language of politics has begun to sound like the ominous screeches, bumps and grinding sounds of worn out machinery. The “big end” is starting to give up, the engine is burning oil and emitting dark pungent smoke, and losing power the more the accelerator pedal is pressed to the floor. You don’t have to be able to diagnose the fault to know that the vehicle you’re travelling in is well and truly ‘buggered’.

Me, I’m up the embankment watching the headlong traffic from a safe distance. We’ve got a pair of stout walking shoes, warm clothing, a torch, and we know where there’s a shelter.

Like you, Roger, I think it’s now a matter of sauve qui peut!

(Mandy Davies) #93

Hello Vero

If this report is true then France is looking at a measles epidemic. Such a nasty and potentially dangerous disease.

(Paul Flinders) #94

Slightly alarming - but, as the report says you need around 95% vaccination rates to achieve herd immunity for measles (as it is very transmissible) and France hasn’t been managing that sort of take-up.

(Véronique Langlands) #95

There are 2 cases so far at my daughter’s lycée.

(Mandy Davies) #96

Oh no Vero, that’s worrying.

(Véronique Langlands) #97

Well I don’t like, but you know what I mean. Yes very worrying especially as it is likely to hit teenagers even harder than little children.

(Paul Flinders) #98

Is your daughter immunised?

(Helen Wright) #99

Agreeing to disagree Vero…politely and with the upmost respect for yours and everyone’s point of view…personally I maintain that vaccination is a flawed concept and herd immunity via vaccination is also a flawed concept and will one day soon be seen as a very dark period in terms of our medical history and lack of understanding of the immune system…Even If vaccination uptake mandatory or otherwise was 100 per cent it won’t prevent breakthrough cases in the vaccinated population…there are always gonna be non-responders no matter how many vaccines are given and it’s known that the vaccinated shed the virus…this is one point of view amongst many… (It’s interesting that bill gates whilst a vociferous voice for mandatory vaccination doesn’t vaccinate his own kids…Is he relying on herd immunity or does he know that he remains unaccountable for global unauthorised vaccine trials and the resulting vaccine injury and death as do Merck et al…???)

(stella wood) #100

Very, very worrying about Measles. We have had some cases locally.

Fortunately most parents are being sensible (in my personal view and obviously their’s) and going the Vaccination route.

IMHO it needs to be halted in its tracks… as much as is humanly possible.