'Where's daddy?' daughter asked Erika Kirk

Lord Porridge, I think the problem people are having with feeling empathy for Charlie Kirk is that he himself did not oppose (and in some ways incited) the violence by which he met his end.

Kirk’s comment about “some deaths being worth it to preserve the Second Amendment” has already been quoted (I paraphrase).

And many of those who agreed with his political point of view have been lauding him to the skies (Trump apparently is planning to give him some kind of posthumous medal) while previously either ignoring or actually laughing at the deaths of Democratic politicians who have been assassinated in the US.

Everybody here deplores his death, but he was not a saint or a martyr, and he represented a brand of American hypocrisy that many find distasteful (to say the least). It’s not about whether you agree or disagree with some (or even all) of his talking points, it’s about the very sad poison that has entered the bloodstream of American politics, largely generated by people who would like to turn the political clock back to the pre-Civil War era, and are often doing it violently and by trampling on people’s human rights (viz the Jan 6 insurrection and the activities of ICE, to name but two).

That’s a quite different thing from “conservatism” vs “liberalism” as we understand it in Europe.

And lastly we should also remember that he was shot by a young man who it seems (according to early reports) represented an extremist group who actually thought Charlie Kirk was not right-wing enough.

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That is exactly what I am talking about, and deploring.

I’m struggling to think of anyone whose murder I would celebrate in the way Kirk’s death is being celebrated.

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Indeed. I don’t think any of us here really disagree on the fundamentals, but of course one’s own political perspective can come into play. But I don’t think anyone on the left has really been celebrating Kirk’s death in the way that some US right-wingers seemed happy about previous attacks on Democrats.

Anyhow it’s all very sad and we must hope that cooler heads prevail.

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Where is this Porridge? I’m reading the papers, listening to the radio and watching (a bit of) the TV but I don’t see any celebration. If it’s on social media, well they’re nutcases on there.

I did see rightwing celebration of hits against democrats in the past. I have seen the Left and Liberals being blamed for this assassination by the despicable President, the despicable Musk and even the flakey Utah Governor. One man dies and the whole Left is under attack. And it turns out the assassin comes from a fully signed up Republican family. A family that thinks them posing with guns is an appropriate family snap.

Even the grieving widow’s “address to the Nation” was, IMO, a rightwing political broadcast. And a pretty scary one at that.

I don’t celebrate the death of anybody, anywhere, quite the opposite, as has been evidenced here many times, but these extreme rightwingers are a dangerous lot. It is Left that is under attack, not the Right and, as we’ve discussed, the Left is disorganised, pretty well leaderless and weak :slightly_frowning_face:

I find it very worrying.

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All that weird insinuation that Paul Pelosi was bi/ gay and was ‘entertaining’ the lunatic who then attacked him that started on social media but was then massively amplified by the mainstream right wing press in the US was beyond disgusting. It would have been disgusting if there was actually an iota of evidence to back it up, but there never was which made it so much worse.

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@John_Scully , I don’t think it’s fair to name people, and if you don’t think you’ve seen it then I’m not going to convince you.

What I find really depressing is that the American left has stooped to adopting the tactics of the right. (I don’t mean that chap who was mocking Trump: that was creative and funny.)

I see the latest straw being clutched by the Right is that Robinson shot Kirk in the defence of his trans roommate at the Dixie Technical College. :roll_eyes:

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First the shooter was trans, then his roommate, they won’t get happy until they find second cousin twice removed that the shooter has never met who actually is trans so they can demonise them somehow. It would be hilarious in it’s patheticness (sorry, I know it’s probably not a word) if it wasn’t so serious at this point.

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Nailed it.

Kirk’s body was transported on Air Force Two, escorted by the VP. He will be awarded a posthumous Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is the US’ highest honor given to a civilian. Flags were directed to be lowered to half-staff. For a talk show host. He spewed truly vile and disgusting opinions and, unfortunately, swayed a lot of young people to his views. He was disliked by many, but was one of the most influential commentators that spewed ridiculous stuff. That’s why he wasn’t on a lot of Europeans’ radar - he wasn’t on a lot of Americans’ radar, either - he was just one of many shock jocks. But he was adored by Trump and MAGA.

I know that there aren’t a lot of Americans on this forum, and I think that it might be hard for people who aren’t Americans to understand the level of disgust that many of us have for Kirk, and for the honors that are being bestowed on him. Although I read a lot of British and European news, I did not grow up in the UK, or Europe, and therefore do not have the understanding of the culture and history that most people on this forum have. I will never participate in conversations about the UK/Europe - I don’t know enough to even start. At the risk of offending Porridge yet again with my “condescension”, I will humbly suggest that those of you who are not from the US, or have not lived there for a long time, do not truly understand the threat that Trump and his toadies, including Charlie Kirk, pose to democracy and the US as a whole. Every freaking day, we have to wake up wondering WTF they have done now - what rights have been taken away, who has been deported, who’s losing their healthcare, who has been bombed out of the ocean because they didn’t look “right”, who has been arrested for nothing - it goes on and on. It’s exhausting and terrifying. Breaking it down to “oh, you are hateful because you disagree” is, to be frank, extremely offensive to me. Democracy is at risk, and people like Kirk are a huge contributor to that risk. So, yeah, giving that asshole the honors that he has and will be given is disgusting. The accolades are disgusting. He should not have been shot to death, but he was, and that does not make him the martyr that the right is trying to make him out to be.

Porridge, did you know that after the school shootings at Uvalde, Texas, parents of some of the kids who were mowed down had to give DNA samples to the coroner, because their children’s bodies were so mutilated and shredded that they could not be identified? Charlie Kirk said, “It’s worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment”. So, yeah, I will not mourn him, and I won’t apologize for that.

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The media, or what is left of it in the US, needs to start showing the results of what people like Kirk are trying to defend. Let them see it. You can argue that Kirk got what was coming to him, but these kids and the ones at Sandy Hook didn’t.

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If he doesn’t get it now, given the state of the UK right now, he will get it very soon.

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I agree, what’s going on in the US is scary. They seem to have been preparing since Trump lost in 2020.

Going back to the demo, Musk said that the Left is the party of murder and also called for an election in the UK. I thought everything he said was appalling and calculated to cause disruption.

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Straight up. The US media is abysmal.

Good post.

I may not truly understand it but the bit I do understand frightens me enough.

Looking at the aerial video of 110K to 150K marching over a rightwing generated non-crises yesterday makes me worry that the UK is also on the cusp, and Starmer is asleep at the wheel.

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That’s scary as well.

Thinking about Uruguay?

I love France. Keeping Uruguay in mind for if they kick us out.

I think it’d be Portugal for us.

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I can’t face attempting to learn a fourth language.

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I’m told that the more you learn, the easier it gets…

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