I am wondering how many of you are for Brexit and how many against it?


(Elaine Hayden) #101

But that’s nonsense as no discussions can take place until Article 50 has been triggered? As I understand it, it is only when Article 50 is triggered that our formal intention to leave is registered and only then can any negotians begin with the Member States regarding the terms of exit.

There is a legal procedure to be followed so I understand that we cannot present our agenda for discussion to EU leaders until Article 50 has actually been triggered. I believe we have given a date for Article 50 to be triggered by end of March 2017 so any frustration by EU leaders is misplaced as far as I can see. We are simply following the procedures laid down by the EU?

I don’t read British newspapers either as I live and work in France.

(David Martin) #102

The EU are unhappy that the UK has delayed triggering Article 50. They are being forced to wait before being able to plan their future with and without Britain while all the time the British press, and some UK politicians, are coming up with unbelievable cake and eat it deals that they claim will be open for Britain to pick and choose from. The other EU countries have pointed out, quite rightly, that any deals forged will have to suit them as much as Britain. That is not spiteful, childish behaviour but cold, hard facts. Whatever comes out in the wash there will be painful consequences a plenty.

(Sandy Hewlett) #103

There’s frustration on both sides but I’m with Elaine on this. The EU is showing a petty and vindictive side (Junckers in particular) as a deterrent to anybody else who wants to leave their club, almost “how dare you”.

(Anna Watson) #104

I haven’t seen that. I have seen a strong feeling that the UK should have made sure it had all its ducks in a row before holding a referendum with such far-reaching consequences, rather than holding the referendum first and then wasting everyone’s time looking for its ducks and arguing about how to catch them. And I have seen the EU reiterating and standing up for its principles, but I don’t find that unreasonable; I haven’t seen “how dare you leave” although I have seen “how dare you imagine you can shrug off the devoirs and keep the droits”. I would appreciate it if you could point me to some of this petty vindicativeness side of the coin because to be honest I’m basically a Figaro reader and anything that isn’t in there tends to pass me by. I obviously need to look more widely to get a more balanced picture, so any links welcome please (not the Mail though because it’s bad for my blood pressure).

(Sandy Hewlett) #105

Hmmm I found plenty of newspaper articles but tried to find something that was neither loony-left nor mad-foaming-right so how about the Independent? http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-i-voted-referendum-jean-claude-juncker-europe-angela-merkel-bitter-arrogant-response-a7107336.html I think his ‘Pffffft’ dismissive remark when asked about talks with Theresa May pretty much showed his contempt!

(Elaine Hayden) #106

I was referring to comments such as Hollande’s “There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price”. The threats that we must face a painful exit. I just find such rhetoric so unhelpful when the EU has never faced this situation before. It is surely vital that everyone remains adult, sensible and at least attempts to show an understanding of the difficult situation we all now face. The UK has not declared war on the EU, it simply allowed it’s people a democratic vote. The result of that vote has rocked not only the UK but obviously Europe and the rest of the world.

For me, the most important thing now is that the negotiations are meticulous in their planning, sensible, and fair. Threats before we reach the negotiating table do not help at all and, in my humble opinion, are childish and spiteful. Equally, speculation from the UK as to what we can expect from the negotiations are also ridiculously unhelpful. The simple fact is that no one knows how this will all unfold. However, In such a crisis I expect world leaders on both sides of the Channel to behave in a respectful, democratic and intelligent manner. Call me stupid but I live in hope … what else do we have?

(Paula Clements) #107


(David Martin) #108

Surely all the other leaders are saying is, ‘You will not be able to have your cake and eat it.’ Not physical threats just the plain facts. The EU is a group that requires its members to give and take, the British press and many Leave voters want a situation where it’s more take and take. It’s not surprising that other leaders reacted the way they did. What do you mean about being adult? Surely it’s a mature reaction to explain to someone that they can’t change the balance of relations to their advantage and the rest of the group’s disadvantage and expect to get away with it. Only a very immature (or spoilt) person would expect that privilidge.

(Elaine Hayden) #109

We shall have to agree to disagree David. It’s my personal opinion that some of the EU leaders have behaved in a less than mature fashion and I have been disappointed at that but you obviously don’t agree so I respect your opinion. As for having our cake and eating it - again, this is my humble opinion. I simply have never understood why that phrase is being banded about especially when the main complaint is that UK are frustrating EU members by NOT disclosing their agenda? If we haven’t yet cited our negotiating agenda how then can the UK be accused of demanding our cake and eating it? As far as I know we haven’t yet demanded anything so until the facts are actually laid bare all this type of rhetoric and surmising is not doing anything at all to help the situation. Again that’s my humble opinion on the issue. I don’t expect everyone to agree but that’s my view on the subject.

(Anna Watson) #110

The cake and eat it phrase, if you remember, is a direct quote from Boris Johnson. He stated in an interview that the UK intended to do that very thing. Maybe he thought the EU leaders don’t keep tabs on what he says in the UK, maybe he thought they wouldn’t understand the meaning of the phrase - but they did read it and they did understand it, and they weren’t amused, and several of them made their own droll replies.

(Véronique Langlands) #111

The problem is really that there IS no agenda, the government were taken by surprise and had no plan at all in place in the event of a vote to leave; as the vote to leave carried the day that left an utter shambles for them to sort out.
Completely half-baked of them and I don’t actually think they are being frightfully clever and playing their cards close to their chest etc, I think they still haven’t got the foggiest and it is brown trousers all round when they do think about it, because whatever they do they are in trouble in the short-term.
In any case their priority still seems to be internecine strife and jockeying for position within the party and the very material concern of how to negotiate brexit, while it creates a lot of hot air, is on the back burner because of the aforementioned party hackery…

(Lee Bentley) #112

I voted out as well Sandy and have since been called names, accused of being a racist, xenophobic, bigot, homophobic etc, lost a few friends but frankly that doesn’t bother me, what does annoy me though are the self righteous people who say that deep down I realised I made a mistake…I can assure those people, after a lot of research I knew what I did the right thing.

(Barbara Deane) #113

ok …interesting…but could you tell me why you voted out?
Could you be better off personally ?

(Sandy Hewlett) #114

Barbara, I think we’re revisiting old ground here. No, I shan’t be better off personally - the exchange rate has wobbled and it’s possible we may have to contribute. I voted out purely because the original Referendum was to vote for a common market - not a federal superstate - and I believe that the European Union and Euro cannot survive. So if you’re on a speeding train heading to oblivion I’m happier to take my chances and jump off now. Is it difficult to believe that I can vote for something other than self interest as most Remainers I have spoken to have wanted to stay in because of their pensions, health care, residency etc., which is a single generation issue. Perhaps I can turn the question around. Why did you vote to Remain? Because truly I am baffled by anybody thinks that it’s better in the long term and for future generations to remain … in the same way that many Remainers cannot understand my reasoning, I’m struggling to see the long term benefits to stay in.

(Barbara Deane) #115

I never, ever jump off a moving train…for starters.
Secondly MY vote was obstructed. This was due to bad management.
Then I do believe that UK will become isolated and what is to happen
to " love thy neighbour" and then the banishing of Europeans, muslims, and any one who is not part of the club.
It is going backwards.
Yes…I suppose to add to that the security and stability of those who are
finding their own way abroad are to be scorned.

(Sandy Hewlett) #116

That’s not what I said Barbara. But many remainers have immediate self-interest as their primary motive which I entirely understand and some I’ve spoken to have stated only that as the basis for their decision with no look towards the long term nor for future generations. I acknowledge that their present circumstances and security are a major factor in their decision, and I understand and respect that. I certainly don’t scorn it nor think badly of anybody for whom that is the primary concern.

(Barbara Deane) #117

And for most of who want to remain in Europe …we too look to the future
and see a totally different view
We see that fresh interest in hatred developing and we are encouraging the young to close their minds to history.
It was the Polish and French soldiers who helped UK win the last war.
It was the European unity which brought new wealth and comfort to a
fairly poverty stricken country.
With Brexit many people will suffer…and to achieve what?
This is not fresh ground…but nothing…nothing at all has been solved.

(David Martin) #118

Future generations? My three children all live in the UK and two of them were horrified by the result as it will make living their dreams to work in Europe far more difficult. They have professional qualifications so I am not talking about building, gardening or washing up .They, as did the vast majority of their friends and colleagues, voted remain.

(Sandy Hewlett) #119

Fair point, I understand your views and concerns. We are never likely to agree on this.

(Barbara Deane) #120

Ouch…David you are getting close!
gardeners, builders and washers- up are important in this world.
Yes it will be very difficult for people to come and go through Europe and to
seek opportunities
David Capability Browns ghost is moving to your area to have a little chat.
Where exactly do you live …not far from me.